This just gives you an idea of my process... — Possibility
Except you do think that Lao Tzu wrote the TTC for a specific communicative purpose, and I think you’d agree that the text uses a particular language, and employs a particular style and structure in itself. That a reductionist methodology, right there - a way of rendering an understanding of the Tao in a relational structure of strokes on a page. Like the choices an artist makes to render a 4D experience of light and movement in 2D. — Possibility
The structure of the English language insists that biology is not chemistry and psychology is not anatomy - that each ‘level of organisation’ must be spoken about in a different way, using different words. — Possibility
Each attempted translation of the TTC proposes an alternative reductionist methodology, a set of hypotheses to be tested by relating to experience, life and objective reality. We’re not testing what is written, therefore, but our own relation to it. — Possibility
I don’t expect you to see things the way I do - only to explore its potential from your own perspective, to ask yourself why you don’t see fear in the body as well as the mind, how your perspective might change if you did, and if that’s such a bad thing... — Possibility
This verse is a watershed of different views. Are the things being named as awkwardly related to each other as the problem of talking about them? Or is there an order that is consistent to itself as how things come about that we only understand poorly through deficient means?... — Valentinus
What he did see was that, unable to examine these aspects closely as such, we tend to confuse them all as one. This doesn’t help. The blended confusion fails to sparkle at best; at worst, we can’t just ignore it. We can’t stop it or name it, and it appears to be nothing at all - the uncaused cause, unmoved mover, etc. — Possibility
I don’t have much to argue over with this translation at all, nor with Chen’s detailed comments. I can see why you use this version - its descriptions of the Tao itself seem quite clear to me. It reminds me of qualitative descriptions in quantum field theory. — Possibility
This is where I sign off... — TheMadFool
If I am one of the 'some', then you can and will do whatever you like. It's your thread.
Re: the thread. You disagreed with me re its disjointed nature. Again, only quoting part of my post. Did you not appreciate my thoughts about a meandering path ? — Amity
Did you not appreciate my thoughts about a meandering path ? — Amity
However, sometimes off-shoots, like this, just get in the way...
They need to be cut back, reduced, so that the tree can grow to its full potential. — Amity
That is exactly what I was going to do. Leave. — Amity
Lao Tzu’s solution seems to be to examine our history of relation to the Tao, and the very next verse begins with a description of the old masters. — Possibility
[emphasis added]I think there is something worthy in framing the "solution" as a history of relation to the Tao, even if people disagree about what relationships are being brought into view. That element is good way to investigate the intention of the text but also how to see what came from framing reality this way. The "natural" is presented as a result of beings being created through opposites related to other opposites — Valentinus
..Hold fast to the Way of old, in order to control what is here today.
The ability to know the ancient beginnings, this is called the thread of the Way.
— Ivanhoe
Notes:
32. Returning to an ideal past state is a common theme in the text.
For other examples see chapters 16, 25, 28, 30 and 52. — Amity
I guess (just my interpretation) that Tao is developing here the principle of omnipresence. When the poem says “advances when he turns back” I think it is referring to either Principle itself or our knowledge. — javi2541997
Re: 'advances when he turns back'.
Mitchell:
The Master stays behind;
that is why she is ahead.
She is detached from all things;
that is why she is one with them.
Because she has let go of herself,
she is perfectly fulfilled. — Amity
I don't know but think your suggestion of the principle of omnipresence seems right. — Amity
I guess it is better than mine. I wanted to translate it with my own vocabulary or brief use of dictionary because Google translate doesn’t translate it properly I think... — javi2541997
It is admirable what you are doing to share your translation and your interpretation.
It is a difficult text in any language. But worthwhile to engage with, I think. — Amity
Would you consider yourself a Taoist ? — Amity
I had a good teacher in school — javi2541997
Hopefully, I finally found a good website like this after years of searching. — javi2541997
I think not at all because Taoism tend to be ideal. I respect and like the poems but somehow I only believe if I live it. I guess this is why I always like empiricism. — javi2541997
A good and inspirational teacher makes all the difference in the world — Amity
the conclusion that without philosophy a society can be in decay.
After 6 or 7 years I see it now. We are in decay... — javi2541997
Did Lao Tzu write the TTC for a specific purpose? This is from Addis and Lombardo, Verse 63.
Act without acting. Serve without serving. Taste without tasting....
Therefore the Sage Never attempts great things and so accomplishes them.
So, I guess, no... Lao Tzu didn't have a purpose in writing the TTC. I think Lao Tzu meant what he said and said what he meant. — T Clark
Would you consider yourself a Taoist ?
— Amity
I think not at all because Taoism tend to be ideal. I respect and like the poems but somehow I only believe if I live it. I guess this is why I always like empiricism. — javi2541997
I’m thinking perhaps we see Taoism as either monist or idealist. I tend towards the monist perspective, myself. That may be why my interpretation often seems so out of step here. — Possibility
it - so perhaps the TTC itself is an idealist structure, but that’s not the same thing. — Possibility
This is why I pretended to say — javi2541997
I don't think you meant 'pretend' as in to 'to give a false appearance', did you ?
I see the Spanish 'pretender' can have different meanings: to aim, to claim, to profess'.
A case of a 'false friend' ? — Amity
Yes, pretend in Spanish is a “false friend” word. I didn’t mean “to give a false appearance” but the verb “to claim”
Sometimes we have to be careful about different words meanings :sweat: — javi2541997
The structure of TTC is (just my humble interpretation) the Principle that can be also named as “world” or the the thing that emanates everything, etc... because Lao-Tzu puts some metaphor to at least trying to get these objectives: peace (this is why in some verses talks about a the difference between a good or bad savant can lead to be in wars or not) equilibrium (when talks about the Principle itself and how we interpret it in the most balanced position possible). Again, these are my interpretations probably I am wrong. — javi2541997
English is a strange language. — Possibility
Peace and equilibrium seem to me fairly accurate descriptions of objectives, or ways towards the Tao. I think most of us agree more or less with the importance of these concepts, but perhaps not so much with the methods for achieving them. I think many people would advocate ignorance, isolation or exclusion as useful methods towards achieving a practical peace, for instance. But I don’t think this is the kind of peace that the TTC strives for - one that prefers division over interaction. So I would suggest unity as a third main objective - in the sense of acting as if one, not dissolving into a literal, singular totality. I also like that equilibrium has a more dynamic quality than balance. — Possibility
I think your map differs from Lao Tzu's in that you are locating the "ineffable" as an ingredient in the experience of living amongst the ten thousand things where Lao Tzu is pointing outside to something we will never experience. — Valentinus
Thank you for providing the 2 different translations, the commentary and your thoughts. This provides access and allows for flexibility in reading the text. — Amity
To help us find the Way or set us on the right course by teaching us not to be rigid with fixed beliefs or opinions. — Amity
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