Yes it is! I think this happens because when we are kids we are connected to primary perceptions that impact us. Then, we choose a role to play with. Exactly, in that period of time we were not putting enough emphasis because for us was just a game. Nevertheless, when years passed by we look at it with different view. I guess it is even when one of our first characters or masks we use in life appears for the first time.

I have felt the shaman archetype to be central to my life, the idea of healing oneself and others. — Jack Cummins

Exactly, this is your role and mission and life. It is beautiful having something to be related to.

I see it as very questionable if any 'experts' try to define a correct way of seeing. — Jack Cummins

Me too. It could be even dangerous because these special persons can be ended up having negative labels.

It makes me wonder about the whole nature of the symbolic within building design and the imagery underlying traditions, including the esoteric. — Jack Cummins

I don't know much more than that... — unenlightened

If you are interested about freemasonry symbolism I recommend to you this: https://www2.uned.es/dpto-hdi/museovirtualhistoriamasoneria/19simbolismo_masonico/ojoquetodolove.htm

The link on Freemasonary symbolism looked interesting but it was not in English, so I don't know if you sent the wrong version by accident. Generally, I am interested in esoteric symbolism, including alchemy, but I am not sure whether or not it is relevant to the thread I started. I guess it does explore unique mythical narratives. However, whether I would wish to explore this is not depends on whether you or other people are interested in discussing it.

Sorry Jack. It is in spanish because it comes from a good university here in Madrid. I think it is interesting to debate about it but as you explained is not connected at all with the original thread so I accidentally made a tangent in your OP.

I am not really too bothered about tangents, but I just can't speak or read Spanish. However, I guess it is possible that there may be some Spanish speaking people who are on the forum. However, I would be a bit annoyed if they began writing in Spanish on the thread. As far as the actual discussion goes, it does depend if anyone else takes any interest in the thread. The way it seems to happen is that there are so many threads created daily and unless they catch on quickly, they often fade away. Funnily enough though, they do pop again in sometimes.

I think we are just a few Spanish citizens here in the forum. Me and @Miguel Hernández. But do not worry because we always speak in English in this forum because it is the rules and we have to respect it. Also, English is the universal language where we can share our thoughts. Sometimes I share some links form the universities of my country because I think it could be interesting doesn't matter at all if they are in spanish.
As you perfectly explained, if the discussion is still viewed depends a lot of how the people of this forum is interested in it so it is understandable why we have to make it the most attractive possible.

Thanks, you are quite right. I think that there has been some interesting discussion with you and the few others who have replied. Generally, I was probably not expecting the direction of the thread to become go in the direction of esoteric symbolism. My threads often seem to go that way and it is probably because I have a leaning towards the esoteric. But, really I wished to open up a wider philosophy the imagination an fantasy The whole way in which sexual fantasies and dark fantasy is interesting. One area of possible discussion would be the way in which fantasies of hatred develop and manifest in life.

The whole way in which sexual fantasies and dark fantasy is interesting. One area of possible discussion would be the way in which fantasies of hatred develop and manifest in life.

It is interesting this debate/discussion. We, as males, develop a lot of sexual fantasies when we are teenagers. I don't know if it is somehow innate to our nature but we do and then this why we search porn in internet. I think this is not necessarily a bad issue at all since the moment just satisfy our primary sexual stimulus. But we have to be agree that can develop negative circumstances if those sexual fantasies end up becoming a regular condition. Probably can create bad habits as being abusive/sexual offender or use prostitution to satisfy our fantasies.

I think that the internet just becomes an available outlet for finding all information, whether it is porn or factual. But what I think is happening is that many people use the internet for finding relationships too. I think that the internet doesn't just provide our fabric of fantasy but our whole discourse with the real world. In many ways, it is a way of retreating into a private universe.

However, I am not saying I see the internet as all bad because I am so pleased to have found this site. Prior to finding it, I did not have much chance for philosophical discussion. However, when I was working in mental health care, when I was on duty I was aware that the patients used to come to me for deeper discussions about life. I was aware that some staff thought that was a waste of time. I got comments implying that I should be helping the patients tidy their rooms instead or doing meal preparation. Most people I know regard philosophy and related fields as being of no importance. I remember a work colleague visiting me in my home and suggesting that I throw away most of my books. She didn't even think that I should bother taking them to charity shops. So, based on my experience of the interests of most people I know, this site has given me some form of expression. I am able to live out the fantasy of pretending to be a philosopher.

I am agree with your point that fortunately we have websites like this forum in internet but it is like a treasure because these kind of pages are not famous at all. I think internet is an interesting place where we can share a lot of thoughts like telepathically. So, we are forced to admit that making an invention like this one is good for humanity.
Nevertheless, as we are talking about, can be also a dangerous place due to the people. Some of them just uses for bad habits or even hurts others. For example, cyberbullying, as a modern concept of literally harassment through internet. These bullies can even make others feel so much pain that end up having suicidal thoughts.

As you perfectly said:

However, I am not saying I see the internet as all bad because I am so pleased to have found this site. Prior to finding it, I did not have much chance for philosophical discussion

This is the pretty part of all internet. I was literally finding something like this forum during months. I am glad to be here and debating with you and the other members.
So I guess the important fact here is being clever enough to find the best websites.

Yes, this site is a treasure and it gives an unofficial platform for philosophy. However, I imagine that there some people on the site who are published writers. But when I speak of pretending to be a philosopher, I am also question, with a certain amount of humour what does it mean to be a 'real' philosopher? I come from a perspective of thinking that social reality is constructed. This goes back to a classic sociology text, ' The Social Construction of Reality', by Berger and Luckman,(1996), which depicts the whole way in which social life is constructed, and personal identity, and, we inhabit 'symbolic universes.'

So, we could say that we are all social actors. The internet gives opportunity for people to create identities different from the ones they live in daily life. The majority of people do use the same names they live by. Also, most people don't include their photo. I am taking a certain risk because I am not anonymous and my photo is included and, there are a few others who do so too.

While this site is not famous, it is on the internet for the public to view. So, in a way, what we write is on the borderline between the unpublished and the published. I find that borderline to be fun. It makes it an experiment in which what is read, or not read at all if the thread fades and get lost. Perhaps the lost, hidden threads go into the collective domain of hidden knowledge, or esoterica.

Of course, the internet is a site where people can be bullied or harassed. On this particular site, there are probably cliques and there are dramas, like when people get banned. I do believe that the site has an unconscious. Here, I am drawing a parallel with the psychodynamic understanding of organisations. This goes back to the work of Menzies, who looked at the way anxiety abounds or is contained in organisations.

I also know that it is recognised in art psychotherapy that when people are working separately in art therapy groups, but not watching each other, that when work is viewed by the group afterwards, often common themes seem to emerge. When I read various current threads, I sometimes notice similar themes and ideas appearing, as if they have arisen organically from the unconscious of the collective psyche of the forum members. There are probably deep layers of fantasy as well, or to use the psychoanalytic spelling of it, as phantasy.

with a certain amount of humour what does it mean to be a 'real' philosopher? — Jack Cummins

This is one of the questions we always asked ourselves at least once. I think is free interpretation what to consider being a real philosopher. Nevertheless, I want to share with you a brief story about philosophy and its study.
When I was studying law in college one of our colleagues was previously a philosophy student. I asked him how was his experience because I am so interested about study philosophy in university. He answered with a very clever question: Philosophy is not to be studied but to be lived.
I think it depends how we live our lives and want to develop our knowledge. These are the true thinkers. Since the moment where we are here debating about fantasies or whatever happens in our minds make us being philosophers or at least thinkers because we are somehow interested on it.

So, we could say that we are all social actors. The internet gives opportunity for people to create identities different from the ones they live in daily life. The majority of people do use the same names they live by. Also, most people don't include their photo. I am taking a certain risk because I am not anonymous and my photo is included and, there are a few others who do so too. — Jack Cummins

We totally are. Remember the words person comes from the word mask in Greek. We wear different masks along the way because we tend to be different persons depending who are we talking or debating with. I think it is not an issue if you do not post your photo here or whatever because we are avatars and here we are free to express ourselves. I want to be honest with you, I feel sometimes more free/opened here debating in the forum than in real life. But this not necessarily have to be bad.

I won't get into the discussion of being a real philosopher on this thread because I just couldn't resist the temptation to create a thread on it.

However, I agree that life involves putting on masks. Like you, I feel much more free to express my thoughts on this site than in real life. In group situations I am extremely quiet and find that I allow others to dominate over me. I find that power dynamics are far less on this forum and it makes me feel far more free to take risks. I sometimes have dreams of reading and writing on threads and wake up checking my phone. Perhaps that my life is a bit impoverished, but I do hope that the experiences of interaction on this site will help my confidence for activities in life. I don't want to just lead a virtual life.

Perhaps that my life is a bit impoverished, but I do hope that the experiences of interaction on this site will help my confidence for activities in life. I don't want to just lead a virtual life. — Jack Cummins

It definitely will! I have the same confidence as yours. Debating here in these interesting topics can help us to develop skills in social interactions and try to be an interesting person to others. Also, I think is important to point out the chill atmosphere that exists here. I like it. Other forums could be so toxic between the members...

I won't get into the discussion of being a real philosopher on this thread because I just couldn't resist the temptation to create a thread on it. — Jack Cummins

Do not worry! We are here to speak and share our ideas :100:

Excellent topic!

Sorrowfully, I think this only works in Kids or Young minds because when you get older you start losing the ability of dream/having fantasies. — javi2541997

Art teachers say young children are much more fun to teach because they haven't lost their ability to either imagine, or express what they imagine. Teenagers and adults tend to be less expressive when they attempt art. I wouldn't know, myself, because I've never been good at "art" (drawing, carving... I''m better when it comes to words).

There are a few different kinds of fantasy: sexual fantasy; spatial fantasy (architecture); anger fantasy (also called 'vindictive perseverating'); literary fantasy (Tolkien); all fiction; etc. I'm not sure musical composers or choreographers are fantasizing as much as 'thinking'. Similarly, I'm not sure Picasso was 'fantasizing' as much as thinking as he executed his paintings. (Are realist artists fantasizing or representing?). People who write film scripts aren't fantasizing either -- they are applying technical knowledge to a text--which is not to slight a job well done!

At 75 I fantasize less than I did when I was 50 or 30 and the fantasies are different. I'd say I 'reflect' more now than I did in the past. For the last several years I've been doing a lot of intensive historical and sociological reading which I've found very satisfying. I read science fiction, quite often. There is less sexual fantasy now, and very little 'angry perseveration" like their used to be. Why? I don't know. I'm just grateful there is less of it.

It does seem that many people do seem to express their imagination differently to the way they do as children. I have run art groups for adults and have found that so many people are afraid of drawing and painting as adults. It does seem that children enjoy drawing and unless they follow some kind of art course, they tend to be afraid to experiment. From what I have seen, this seems to be partly connected with fear of lack of ability but I do think that it is connected with a change in the use of imagination. It does seem that many people seem to be accustomed to drawing pictures and writing stories as children and abandon this around the time of adolescence. I wonder how much of this is related to development and how much is related to education.

Your question as to whether Picasso or many other artists visualised their works first is interesting. From my own experience of making art and some friends who create art it can vary. The idea may be visualised first or may be created spontaneously. I know that William Blake had visions but I think that it is rare. Of course, the whole process of creativity can resemble the shamanic quest, with some journeying into alternate states of consciousness, but this does not mean that all people who create in the arts do this. It is likely that most fiction writing which involves creation of characters involves a certain amount of fantasising. I have come across the idea of fictional characters described as aspects of the self. And, fantasy writing does involve the creation of imaginary worlds, so that does seem to involve conjuring up fantasised otherworldly. And, of course the people who appreciate the arts probably do so for the way in which they are able to be moved into fantasised creations.

"I forgot where I heard that poems
are designed to waken sleeping gods"
~Jim Harrison

It's a good quote, but I have never heard of Jim Harrison? Is he a singer or poet?

Poet, novelist, novella-ist, short story writer, screenwriter, gourmand/travel writer, memoirist, deceased. I met him in the mid-90s through a mutual friend, good times with Jim (onery AF though). I was still scribbling madly then ... still waiting for the call. :meh:

A counselor I had said we create our own life drama. That is our story about our childhood and relationships and experiences. Life as it is seen from our own perspective. This can lead to emotional problems. Hum, I think that is related to our ego. It can be upsetting if someone argues what we believe of ourselves and our relationships, is not true. While Joseph Campbell who came from Jung speaks of our need for mythology and how our lack of shared mythology leads to creating our own mythology using the people in our lives as the monsters and heroes.

I think that archetypes are central to our lives. I did a one term of a course on mythology. I think that it is a whole field of study in its own right. My English teacher was the first person who got me interested in it. I find books such as James Frazer's 'The Golden Bough' and Robert Graves, 'The White Goddess' as very interesting, but possibly more on a cultural level. But, I won't recommend too many more books for you to read. Sometimes, there are so many interesting books to read that I spend so much time reading. But, obviously this seems to be part of my mythic journey and probably yours too.

Absolutely! As a horse is created to run and a bird is created to fly, we are created to think. I think it is totally sad to go through life without being delighted in exploring what life is all about. From the day a child enters school, the child should learn books and reading make our lives rich. We need to turn our focus from materialism that is not sustainable to a quest for knowledge and wisdom.

We are not addressing the reality of living on a finite planet. We are running out of resources and our way of life is not sustainable, but we can be abundantly happy if we focus on knowledge and our relationship. I worry that society is not supporting you as you should be supported, so just keep it mind what you are doing with reading and sharing, and starting conversations is one of the most important things that can be done right now.

I'm not sure musical composers or choreographers are fantasizing as much as 'thinking'. — Bitter Crank

What an interesting thing to say! I never gave that thought but it is certainly worthy of thought.

Can you verbalize more about that thought?

What's your take on how eerily similar fantasy and virtual reality is? If fantasies are good in that they're legitimate modes of experience then shouldn't we all jack into The Matrix and live our lives in a simulation that's to our tastes? What ramifications, if any, for Robert Nozick's Experience Machine

You mean we're not all jacked-in to The Matrix already? :scream:

(Btw, I've yet to experience VR with the improvisational fidelity and depth of feeling of any fantasy, so they're not comparable as far I'm concerned. Like I've been arguing about with one of my nephews for over a decade now: video "RPGs" are like jack-off porn in comparison to the immersive sex of tabletop RPGs (at least, back in my day), or like playing "Guitar Hero" compared to playing guitar).

NB: "Experience machine" = lobotomy plus a continuous 24/7 morphine drip ...

You mean we're not all jacked-in to The Matrix already? :scream:

(Btw, I've yet to experience VR with the improvisational fidelity and depth of feeling of any fantasy, so they're not comparable as far I'm concerned. Like I've been arguing about with one of my nephews for over a decade now: video "RPGs" are like jack-off porn in comparison to the immersive sex of tabletop RPGs (at least, back in my day), or like playing "Guitar Hero" compared to playing guitar).

NB: "Experience machine" = lobotomy plus a continuous 24/7 morphine drip ... — 180 Proof

What bothers me is how fantasizing seems to prefigure virtual reality as it exists today. VR is getting more and more realistic every month it seems. Since it's quite obvious that people prefer their fantasies to real life, it's likely that VR will, at some point, give R (reality) a good run for its money.

Since it's quite obvious that people prefer their fantasies to real life, it's likely that VR will, at some point, give R (reality) a good run for its money. — TheMadFool

Or VR will be "R (reality)" for VL (virtual lives).

Or VR will be "R (reality)" for VL (virtual lives). — 180 Proof

I'm a bit confused about the whole idea of VR/fantasy. Correct me if I'm wrong but VR has to be realistic for it to be taken seriously by people. However, what exactly about VR/fantasy should be realistic? To answer this question we need to understand that fantasy/VR has two aspects that need to be taken into consideration:

1. The fantasy/VR world, the objects and the characters contained therein.

2. The narrative or story that has one as the main protagonist in the fantasy/VR world.


My suspicion is that when people talk of realistic fantasy/VR they're mainly interested in 1 above, specifically how closely the fantasy/VR world, the objects and characters contained therein mimic reality. In other words, people are only interested in things like whether or not, for instance, touching, peeling, chewing, tasting, swallowing a virtual orange is the same as actually doing these things to a real orange.

However, the desire for realism doesn't extend to 2 above i.e. people won't mind the story of their life being a fantasy or a big fat lie. As long as the fantasy/VR world is identical to the real deal, living an invented life isn't an issue at all.

It appears that this distinction - the fantasy/VR world, complete with objects and characters vs the life story of the person in the fantasy/VR world - is of great significance if only because it reveals how people will voluntarily live as fictional characters so long as the fictional world is indistunguishable from reality. Reminds me of Cypher from the Matrix movies. Cypher when he betrays Neo to Agent Smith asks in return for the tip off that he (Cypher) be plugged back into The Matrix, made rich and famous, "like an actor" The takeaway being, people don't mind living a life that's made up so long as our sensory apparatus (sight, hearing, touch, smell, taste) can't tell the difference between the fantasy/VR world and the real world.

What gives?

It appears that this distinction - the fantasy/VR world, complete with objects and characters vs the life story of the person in the fantasy/VR world - is of great significance if only because it reveals how people are concerned not with the truth of their life stories but with how good the "graphics" of their fantasy/VR world is. — TheMadFool

I think it's deeper than that: if the experiential fidelity of VR is indistinguishable from R, then isn't it reasonable for one to prefer the – in principle – "programmable & replayable" experience (VR)? And wouldn't this preference also belong to "the truth of" one's life story?

I think it's deeper than that: if the experiential fidelity of VR is indistinguishable from R, then isn't it reasonable for one to prefer the – in principle – "programmable & replayable" experience (VR)? And wouldn't this preference also belong to "the truth of" one's life story? — 180 Proof

The way I see it, every person is part of two narratives - one, faer real life and two, faer fantasy life. The only reason that people are drawn to their fantasy lives - why fantasizing is so common and satisfying too - is the alternate life story which is more appealing than their real lives. It can't be that people's liking for fantasy is because of how well it decieves our senses because it definitely does not; we know that fantasy ain't real, that's why it's called fantasy, right?