So, the term you shared "pornification", has to do with how sex pervades in modern culture.

That process has, in my eyes, way more to do with the way sex is used to market products and to get attention, than it has to do with pornography.

Just for the heck of it, anyone feeling confident enough to offer a definition of pornography such that, paraphrasing the Justice, I don't have to see it to know it?

Dictionaries are definition porn. You'll have seen plenty of that?

hey. I'll get back to you. The discussion is taking a toll. Talk to you later

Porn is causing untold problems in modern culture, but liberalism has to defend porn as 'freedom of expression' - you barely hear a word of criticism about in the media. There's no greater insult in Australian popular culture than being labelled a 'wowser' (puritanical or censorious). Porn is freedom, and censorship is Hitler. That's the message. — Wayfarer

Interesting you say that - I feel this is where American culture was maybe....10-15 years ago? You know, around the time of Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris, etc.

Anti-porn is still largely associated with the right here in the US, but you can also sometimes see it in feminist circles, but I don't think it's the prevailing feminist view. I think for the time being in the US racial issues and trans issues are front and center and porn has taken kind of a back seat. I wouldn't be surprised to see a strong anti-porn movement gain traction here in the US in the next 5-10 years. It would see support from mainstream right-leaning movements like the Joe Rogan crowd as well as some chunk of the feminist movement.

For me personally I'm trying to take a break from it but it's not easy.

For me personally I'm trying to take a break from it but it's not easy. — BitconnectCarlos

You don’t say! No, seriously, I understand. There’s disputes over whether ‘addiction’ is the right word, but there can’t be any dispute that it’s strongly habit-forming.

You don’t say! No, seriously, I understand. There are disputes over whether ‘addiction’ is the right word, but there can’t be any dispute that it’s strongly habit-forming. — Wayfarer

Is TPF a kind of pornography?

What do you think. Is porn bad for us? — TaySan

For some it's bad. I've read stories of those who claim addiction and and poor relationships because of it. For others, it has no long term sorts of effects. It's obviously here to stay though.

I do believe sexual behavior has changed due to porn, just in the sense that people are now better educated/corrupted into new varieties/perversions they'd have never otherwise thought of. For example, it's fairly commonplace for young women to go to the corner strip mall to have their pubic hairs ripped out. I think that's the result of porn. I don't know that's a bad thing in any moral sort of way, and if it adds to someone's intimacy/pleasure/excitement, then I'm not one to stand in the way of someone's good time.

On the other hand, if someone feels pressured by these new norms to do something they're uncomfortable with, then it's probably a bad thing. You just have to hope people know what best belongs to fantasy and what belongs to reality.

Is TPF a kind of pornography? — tim wood

Debate porn.

I can't for the life of me find the article that talked about effects of sexual arousal on decision making in men and women. Specifically, men spent more money if they were dealing with an attractive female sales person whereas women spent less money if they were dealing with an attractive male.

Found this one though. Research is linked in the article
https://awario.com/blog/does-sex-sell-advertising/
Finding that men have a higher tendency for unusual sexual behavior and morally questionable when they are sexually aroused compared to how much they expected to be when unaroused. In other words, we are more irrational than we think we will be when aroused.

Anyway, I bring this up to show that sex porn is a powerful tool in affecting male attitudes and behavior. As long as it is, it will be used as such by those that benefit from them. IE by women, marketing, etc.

Porn is a habit, but not all habits are porn.

Statistics say that 25 percent of all internet searches are related to porn. Pornography laws differ from region to region. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornography_laws_by_region — TaySan

Ironically, the Power of Porn is being revealed today (3/31/2021) on the internet. We're experiencing a worldwide (mostly US & Europe) Denial-of-Service blockage of net sites. Whenever I point my browser to a favorite website, I get "timed-out" error messages, and no email in my boxes. (note : TPF is an odd-but-welcome exception) Apparently, this is another skirmish in a long-running battle between spammers & porn-purveyors of various kinds, and the watchdogs that try to limit clogging of mailboxes with unwanted solicitations and sexploitation.

A major player in this cyber-warfare is CyberBunker, located in actual underground bunkers in Holland and Germany. In 2013, when a spamblocker site put them on their blacklist, they viciously retaliated with a global targeted denial-of-service attack (flooding email servers with spam). Some individuals were later arrested, but often got off, due to "lack of evidence", and probably to lawyers-on-retainer.

This sorry state of cyber-affairs reminds me of the US crime-wars in the US after Prohibition laws (1920s & 30s) suddenly made alcoholic beverages illegal. Since a large segment of the population had a strong desire for alcohol (for self medication of emotional problems?), some formerly small-time neighborhood thugs, quickly became multimillionaires, and semi-respectable businessmen. They capitalized on a vacated niche of legal drugs, by supplying an illegal product on the black-market. In our anything-goes modern society, is it a crime to violate "community" moral standards? Do we still have ethical communities in that medieval sense?

The "self-righteous" tee-totaling moralizers lost that "moral equivalent of war" big-time. I grew-up in a dry county, where alcohol was seldom seen in "respectable" society. But now, in the 2020s, almost 25% of grocery stores are devoted to various flavors of alcoholic beverages. And formerly illegal Marijuana is about to become legalized, after many years as the drug du jour of rougishly-romanticized devil-may-care hipsters. Now, it may become just another mundane market item -- readily available to pre-teens. Unregulated Capitalism dutifully serves its paying customers, without irrelevant moralizing. Apparently, the nanny-state can't "just say NO!" to deep-seated desires.

Will Junkmail and Pornography follow the same path to semi-legitimacy? How much longer will black-market purveyors be relegated to the ethical underworld? Not too many years ago, Cosmopolitan women's magazines, with occasional nip-slips, were covered-up on grocer store checkout counters. Now, almost anything goes. It seems that whatever is morally condemn-able, soon becomes monetarily profit-able. Just goes to show that you can't hold animal urges & desires down for long. So, your best option to deal with the spam flood is to just get a bigger mailbox. :cool:


Global Down Detector : Pingdom
https://livemap.pingdom.com/

Whenever I point my browser to a favorite website, I get "timed-out" error messages, and no email in my boxes. — Gnomon

what is the connection with the subject matter? How do you know it's not your ISP or a config issue with your home internet?

Nicholas Kristof, a New York Times opinion writer, published an op called The Children of Pornhub in Dec 2020. This created a lot of waves, notably the removal of millions of age-unverified videos from major streaming sites, and also the decision by Visa and Mastercard to withdraw billing services for x-rated performers. It was the nearest thing to a backlash against commercial internet porn since it started.

(According to commentary, Kristof's OP was associated with an activist group called Trafficking Hub, which according to a critique by the Daily Beast is a conservative, anti-porn activist organisation that 'wants to drive the sex industry out of business.')

I subscribe to the Daily Beast, and I'm fan of their political coverage and general journalism. I notice their attitude towards porn: that it's simply another form of entertainment, that it is no different in kind from, say, computer games or cinema. As it's a matter of choice whether to view it or not, there's no real question of morality concerned; what individuals choose to perform, and others to view, is simply a matter for them. That I take to be the liberal view.

The religious view: 'Pornography consists in removing real or simulated sexual acts from the intimacy of the partners, in order to display them deliberately to third parties. It offends against chastity because it perverts the conjugal act, the intimate giving of spouses to each other. It does grave injury to the dignity of its participants (actors, vendors, the public), since each one becomes an object of base pleasure and illicit profit for others. It immerses all who are involved in the illusion of a fantasy world. It is a grave offense. Civil authorities should prevent the production and distribution of pornographic materials.'

(From the Catholic Catechism, Wikipedia 'religious views on porn'.)

This sorry state of cyber-affairs reminds me of the US crime-wars in the US after Prohibition laws (1920s & 30s) suddenly made alcoholic beverages illegal. Since a large segment of the population had a strong desire for alcohol (for self medication of emotional problems?), — Gnomon

I'm sure alcohol dependency was a significant contributor to the backlash against the prohibition laws. Alcohol is also known to be a catalyst for violence and rape, inhibiting rational decision making. However in my circle and many people I know, it's an important social tool. This is in contrast to porn, which by nature seems to discourage the development of social connections.

With that said, my thoughts on it may change quickly because there are actors using outlets like Onlyfans among others that provide a feeling of intimacy along with porn. It's not just a random woman on the screen anymore. It is someone who you can contact and will converse with you (for money of course). Someone who can provide you social satisfaction as well as a sexual one. A part of me screams that this is even more dangerous than normal porn, but my main point that I want to get across is that porn seems to be evolving along with the technology that propel its distribution.

Fun fact: Boys who starts to drink in his preteens develop larger prefrontal cortexes than boys who don't. Ironically the prefrontal cortex is the section of the brain that's associated with decision making. However girls who starts drinking in their preteen develop a much small prefrontal cortex than girls who don't and they generally lead a much less successful life. While it acts like a poison to girls, it makes boys smarter.
From Why Gender Matters by Leonard Sax

That I take to be the liberal view. — Wayfarer

Is that your view as well? For what it’s worth, I think both perspectives can be true, which is to say the “truth” is probably somewhere in the middle. The difference in perspective seems to come down to how one prioritizes there values. Liberals prioritize freedom of choice over all else, whereas religious conservatives prioritize things like sanctity over everything else. I don’t see a way to determine, objectively, which prioritization system is better.

Civil authorities should prevent the production and distribution of pornographic materials. — Wayfarer

This seems nearly impossible to implement effectively, or fairly. What counts as pornography? There is a very wide spectrum of things that people find sexually arousing. And what of the right to freedom of expression? If I want to express myself hypersexually shouldn’t I be allowed to do so?

Is that your view as well? — Pinprick

Actually I tend more to the conservative view although I don't dictate it.

I don’t see a way to determine, objectively, which prioritization system is better. — Pinprick

Morality can't be reduced to merely objective judgement, as objective judgment can only include what can be quantified, whereas this is a qualitative judgement. This is the dilemma of morality in liberal theory - everyone is their own arbiter of value and the individual conscience is the ultimate judge, with only science as the yardstick, and science is not relevant to such matters of moral judgement. Classical liberal theorists, e.g. John Stuart Mill, Jeremy Bentham, etc I think still assumed a modicum of Christian morality would prevail in liberal societies, but in its absence, there is no such constraint.

In religions, even Buddhism - which doesn't have a judging God - there is a moral commandment, 'thou shalt not' which one is obliged to obey. In Buddhism one of the five basic precepts is not to engage in sexual misconduct. (Modern westernised Buddhism tends towards being much more liberal than traditional, and so many Western Buddhists will not regard porn as sexual misconduct, but I'm pretty sure that traditional Buddhists wouldn't agree.)

I can see how it would be impossible and impractical to now try and control the dissemination of internet porn - the genie is well and truly out of the bottle. But I honestly think it's immoral, even while I admit to not being above it. There are huge masses of people strugging with the urge to consume it, who know they really ought not to (google the topic on Amazon.) Of course, there also might be milliions who feel no such pangs. But it has to be remembered that this phenomenon of hyper-real pornography being available to entire populations through hi-tech devices which they carry with them, really is a completely novel situation in society. That's why I don't buy the notion that 'porn has always been around'. We're not talking about sculptures on temple walls or pencil sketches. This is novel, and it's global. A whole new thing.

what is the connection with the subject matter? How do you know it's not your ISP or a config issue with your home internet? — Wayfarer

I suppose this thread is talking about how bad Porn is morally. But that's not the point of my post. It was motivated mostly by frustration, because TPF is one of the few websites I can log onto tonight. Most of my regulars are timed-out, due to denial-of-service attacks. Apparently, liberal-minded philosophical sites are not considered an enemy of the free-speech porn sites. Personally, I don't concern myself with porn, because I don't have young children to be corrupted by its graphic depiction of what shameless naked animals (e.g. dogs) do in public all the time.

My post was only connected to the topic of this thread because CyberBunker is a host for a variety of illicit spammers, black-marketers, and political-secret sites. Porn sites merely happen to be some of their biggest cash-flow customers. In their favor though, they have scruples against child porn. But, like the mafia, they have no qualms about violently attacking their adversaries, by shutting-down half the world's websites, as collateral damage. "How bad is it?" Black-Market & Dark Web Providers like Cyberbunker may be like the Mafia, in that they opportunistically move into any money-making business that is somewhat illicit, and regulated by uptight nanny governments. At least they're not using Thompson submachine guns to massacre their opponents . . . yet. .

Even in liberal Western societies, Porn is still not good for the "clean" image of mainstream internet providers, so they resort to back-channel providers like CB. But it was the fact that a purveyor of porn, among other annoying or illicit or illegal black-market goods & services, that suggested to me a comparison with the rise of the Mafia from immigrant neighborhood gangsters to nationwide semi-legit businessmen. Is that situation morally bad, or just bad for competing legal businesses?

BTW, I know it's not just my local provider because I checked with services that keep tabs on internet outages. The link in the post above gives a graphic global image of how pervasive the problem is. :gasp:

Global Down Detector : Pingdom
https://livemap.pingdom.com/

https://insuretrust.com/worldwide-internet-slowdown-due-to-largest-cyber-attack-in-history/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CyberBunker

This site is not available at this time, due to "time out" error :
Major Internet Outage Cripples the United States ...
https://www.bectechconsultants.com › major-internet-o...
We are issuing a warning to businesses that there is a major internet outage being reported across the United States today.

PS__Just in case you accidentally stumble upon a porn site :
" The NSA gathers evidence of visits to pornographic websites as part of a plan ..." :joke:
https://www.businessinsider.com › Tech Insider › Politics

Most of my regulars are timed-out, due to denial-of-service attacks. Apparently, liberal-minded philosophical sites are not considered an enemy of the free-speech porn sites. Personally, I don't concern myself with porn, because I don't have young children to be corrupted by its graphic depiction of what shameless naked animals (e.g. dogs) do in public all the time. — Gnomon

Actually, dogs, unlike humans, only copulate when the female is in heat. Without those pheremones, dogs are not the least interested. Humans are unique in that respect. (I learned that from Desmond Morris, aged about 12.)

Other than that, I have not the least idea what you're talking about.

You don’t say! No, seriously, I understand. There’s disputes over whether ‘addiction’ is the right word, but there can’t be any dispute that it’s strongly habit-forming. — Wayfarer

That's never been my experience. The only times I have resorted to porn were times when I had no sexual partners or was in an unsatisfactory relationship, and even then I did so sparingly, like only about 5-7 times a week, on account of its utterly unsatisfying nature.

Actually, dogs, unlike humans, only copulate when the female is in heat. — Wayfarer

According to my experience of dogs that's not true, or at least not always true.

even then I did so sparingly, like only about 5-7 times a week, on account of its utterly unsatisfying nature. — Janus

A change in behavior averaging once a day seems like a significant change in habit.

It depends on your libido I guess. (Also, for the sake of humour I was perhaps exaggerating—a little). :wink:

Well said, I like the connection you made with food and sexual porn. It’s this bite sized notion of something that used to be a much more quintessential part of our lives. Something that used to be sustenance and maintenance became merely performative. Without being too cynical, how many relationships these days are based on genuine and or authentic connections. Hopefully it’s merely our position in the cycle of human existence and the notion of silk slippers and wooden shoes (thank you Carlin) but it would seem like even the necessity of this discussion spells the truth of a somewhat miserable situation.

I think it can be bad in some aspects, I think it depends on who is viewing it. For example, a teen who is watching porn might create a distortion of sexual behaviour, and become disappointed when the outcome is not the same.

As it is pretty much staged with a paid actor and actress who try to appeal to as many fetishes as possible. This could create an addiction of the said teenager, and for many others like him or her it can cause physical and emotional intimacy to be eroded.

Some people also grow self-conscious due to how the people in the videos are portrayed, i.e the “perfect” bodies which further add to the unrealistic expectations.

Fun fact: Boys who starts to drink in his preteens develop larger prefrontal cortexes than boys who don't. Ironically the prefrontal cortex is the section of the brain that's associated with decision making. However girls who starts drinking in their preteen develop a much small prefrontal cortex than girls who don't and they generally lead a much less successful life. While it acts like a poison to girls, it makes boys smarter.
From Why Gender Matters by Leonard Sax — FlaccidDoor

Are there studies that show that those with larger prefrontal cortexes make better decisions or do the studies just show that decision making occurs in the prefrontal cortex? Thinking generally takes place in the brain, but those with larger brains aren't statistically smarter than those with smaller brains, so I don't see why an enlarged prefrontal cortex should correlate with it working better.

The real message it would seem is that alcohol consumption affects a developing brain, so maybe hold off drinking until you're a little older.

Thank you all. My take on it is that the sex industry best is regulated.

I need to come to terms with myself. Take care

Actually, dogs, unlike humans, only copulate when the female is in heat. Without those pheremones, dogs are not the least interested. Humans are unique in that respect. (I learned that from Desmond Morris, aged about 12.)
Other than that, I have not the least idea what you're talking about. — Wayfarer

Morris may have meant that dogs actually copulate (inseminate) only when in heat. But both male & female dogs will playfully simulate sexual intercourse almost anytime. Much like human petting and pornography. :cool:

Regarding my rambling remarks about Denial of Service Attacks : please Disregard. Apparently I didn't know what I was talking about. The stuff about CyberBunker was correct, but as it turned out, didn't have anything to do with my inability to connect to some of my regular websites. Various unhelpful diagnostics & troubleshooters led me in a spiraling circle, right back to my own erratic router. After a reboot, I'm again able to copulate, er connect, with all my favorite webpages, such as TPF, which was one of the few that worked during the 2-day downtime. :yikes:


Do Male Dogs Mate With Females Not in Heat? :
Of course a female dog in heat will attract suitors, but male dogs -- neutered or intact -- may attempt to mate with a female who's not in heat. And female dogs aren't the only potential targets of an interested dog. People, other animals and inanimate objects such as toys, pillows and stuffed animals may be on the receiving end a dog's mounting behavior. Mounting isn't just boys being boys; female dogs engage in mounting behavior as well.
https://www.cuteness.com/blog/content/do-male-dogs-mate-with-females-not-in-heat

The book I was referring to was The Naked Ape, published in the mid-60's, and one of my main sources of sex education when I was about 12. It points out that h. sapiens is the sexiest beast on the planet (something I instinctively knew, somehow). Most other mammals' sexual behaviors are regulated around cycles, but humans are up for it any time. There are also major consequences from being upright bipeds. It had lots of titillating detalls and was the first place I learned about fellatio.

Morris' book was amongst the various erotic treasures selected from my parents very 1960's bookshelf, alongside John Updike and Bruno Partridge. It was actually pretty graphic, in a pseudo-pop-science kind of way.

Glad you sorted your network issues.

Apropos of anti-porn sites:

https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/

The basic message is: habitual porn users are easily triggered by images or real-life encounters. To the habituated user, a triggering event fires up the neural pathway which carries an almost irrestible tendency to be acted out, thereby releasing the payload of endorphins to which s/he has become habituated. The force of that habituated response, after being burned in by repeated actions, easily overcomes the prior good intention not to engage. The usual cycle is: regret, rinse, and repeat - ad infinitum.



'… Now you swear and kick and beg us that you're not a gamblin' man
Then you find you're back in Vegas with a handle in your hand....' Steely Dan, Do It Again.

Morris' book was amongst the various erotic treasures selected from my parents very 1960's bookshelf, alongside John Updike and Bruno Partridge. It was actually pretty graphic, in a pseudo-pop-science kind of way. — Wayfarer

Yes, I remember it well a few years later here in Australia. At our place it sat alongside the Female Eunuch, An Invitation to Sociology and Future Shock. An early blockbuster book along the lines of the recent Sapiens.

The book I was referring to was The Naked Ape, published in the mid-60's, and one of my main sources of sex education when I was about 12. It points out that h. sapiens is the sexiest beast on the planet (something I instinctively knew, somehow). Most other mammals' sexual behaviors are regulated around cycles, but humans are up for it any time. There are also major consequences from being upright bipeds. It had lots of titillating detalls and was the first place I learned about fellatio. — Wayfarer

Did you read The Human Sexes, by DM? Lots of nudity. :yikes:

Ah yes, Future Shock. Might be interesting to revisit Toffler, to see how his predictions played out.

No, but it looks interesting. He was a breakthrough writer, Morris.