Thanks for keep sharing this information with me. So much appreciated. I going to give a look — javi2541997
I didn't realise that at all ! Will have to listen...He literally understands TTC as a cascade. from the first verse to the last one. — javi2541997
As will I.I will keep it in mind more closely. — javi2541997
Substance (having) is positive. Emptiness (not having) is negative. But you need both as a equilibrium/balance.
Also, probably is off topic but he remembered that a wheel is related as birth/rebirth inside Buddhism. — javi2541997
Thanks so much for quick listening and responding. Your English is excellent if you can understand that so well — Amity
Thank you for the feedback. This motivates me to keep going sharing thoughts about TTC in English with you. :100: :up: — javi2541997
I refer to this as a ‘cascade’ because I think the multi-dimensional aspect to the structure is an important one: loyalty is one aspect of etiquette/wisdom, politeness is one aspect of righteousness, and benevolent justice one aspect of the Tao. Not just the top step but each step is therefore a step out in all directions, rather than up, broadening our capacity to interact with the world, increasing awareness, connection and collaboration. The ‘descent’ is characterised by ignorance, isolation and exclusion - a closing ourselves off from our capacity to interact with the world, and a satisfaction with a lesser aspect. If we can’t be righteous, at least we can be knowledgeable; if we can’t be polite, at least we can be sincere... — Possibility
And then suddenly we’re insisting on sincerity and loyalty instead of encouraging wisdom, or enforcing ‘political correctness’ instead of striving for benevolence. — Possibility
In other words, we don’t reach wisdom or etiquette by insisting on brute honesty in all relations. It’s about a qualitative awareness of sincerity. If we cannot differentiate levels of sincerity or loyalty in a qualitative sense, then any ‘knowledge’ we have is just data: it lacks formal structure, the relational qualities of wisdom. — Possibility
Do not think of ruling in the literal way that only applies to governance of a nation. Look at your own life and note all the settings and circumstances where leadership plays a role. Most of us will, at some point, start our own families, and we may be called upon to assume the responsibility of leadership in social settings, community activities, or the workplace.
The Tao of leadership remains constant in any context. Whether you find yourself having to deal with your children, neighbors or coworkers, you'll find the distinctions in this chapter a useful guide.
His written translation, explanation and notes from:
https://terebess.hu/english/tao/DerekLin.html#Kap17 — Amity
What I want to do from now is read a verse of TTC, interprete it in my mind and then compare it with Derek Lin's interpretation. I think it could be a good idea because sometimes I feel so lost from the real nature about TTC. — javi2541997
One of the beautiful things is how we are sharing different links and information. You are providing to me more information than my university back in the day — javi2541997
He literally understands TTC as a cascade. from the first verse to the last one. — javi2541997
I am beginning to think that we are practising the Dao, don't you ? :scream:
The internet connects us all in good ways, if we know where to look and evaluate the content before deciding to share. — Amity
Sorry, I didn't catch that. Where did you find this ? — Amity
Yes, I too think it important to recognise the repeated themes throughout the TTC.
This serves as a teaching or learning aid - to ram the message home, if you like. — Amity
OK, I don't see that in the YouTube description of Ch11 as linked.
I am not sure that from the beginning of the book, the TCC itself right through to the very end is a 'cascade' as in a tumbling down or a descent...
Perhaps it is. I will have to wait and see. — Amity
With little but observable manner to base any understanding on - this manner appearing passive, murky, and unidentifiable - people were more inclined to trust their own accomplishments, and with this success as evidence, they relied on their own limited certainty. — Possibility
That observation is an interesting dynamic involved with what might have changed a "working" arrangement to a less functional one. On the other hand, the awareness of what was lost in the "original" structure is presented as an ad hoc solution to what has been lost. There are attempts to correct the attempts at correction. However that might be framed, it is not simply invoking the return of a commonly received value. — Valentinus
These, to me, are all interpretations that derive from taking the English translations at face value. — Possibility
It probably seems such a small quibble to imagine faithfulness as a relational quality, rather than as a concept such as sincerity. — Possibility
it can certainly be perceived as a ladder, but it’s a bit like drawing a circle and saying that’s the moon: it loses something in the telling. — Possibility
I realise you think my approach attempts to undermine the foundation you’re trying to work from. I think I can imagine how that might feel from your perspective, and I don’t think it would be a comfortable experience. — Possibility
I appreciate the efforts you have made to include my perspective in your approach. I hope you don’t mind if I continue to chime in, even though I get the sense that my dissension may be more tolerated now than taken into account. I am enjoying the opportunity to explore the TTC and see how others interpret it. — Possibility
The relational structure here can be simplified to a linear hierarchy, sure - but I think it is more accurately dimensional, and that rendering it as a linear structure misses something of the quality and functionality of the Tao. — Possibility
What is experienced by an individual organism is the result of a condition happening to all organisms. It is exquisitely "materialistic" in many ways. — Valentinus
I think that's you looking at it through the prism of modernity. As I said to T Clark, in practice Taoism is allied with nostrums, potions, and all manner of magic spells, it's about as far from materialism as you could imagine. — Wayfarer
From that perspective, the account we have been given is an account of disagreements, similar to Plato's dialogues. — Valentinus
That's not an unfair assessment, although I'd go a bit further. It's not just one translation, I've looked at 12 or 15 and I look at four or five regularly. — T Clark
It probably seems such a small quibble to imagine faithfulness as a relational quality, rather than as a concept such as sincerity.
— Possibility
The Tao that can be related to is not the eternal Tao. Sorry, but actually, it's true. The Tao does not relate to anything. That's the point. I'm sure "sincerity" is not the absolute best word, but it fits with my understanding of the TTC. I don't see how faithfulness fits at all. — T Clark
It's a metaphor. I don't claim it has a universal truth. I have a friend I've discussed this with. He would say that attributing any sense of one thing being better than another in the TTC is wrong. I get his point, but, when it comes to the Tao, language doesn't work that well. — T Clark
I hope I've never given the impression that I don't appreciate you being here. You've really helped me understand what I believe better than I did before. — T Clark
In so far as Verse 17 concerns what a society does, it seems like it has to assume that different people have different roles. The farmer farms, the tradespeople provide goods, healers heal, warriors fight, and managers manage, etcetera. In addition, this society had a strong connection to their ancestors and respect for their elders. In calling for less need for structured intention, the intention of these people in their different roles is still underway. I take the point that "linear" ranking is being criticized as being unnecessary on many levels but it doesn't seem to me that it dissolves all structures. — Valentinus
This is similar to the uncertainty I expressed earlier concerning intentions in Verse 15. — Valentinus
Some of the commentaries use the repetitive structure as evidence that the text comes from an oral tradition, which is consistent with what you've said. I've also read that, in the original, the verses are rhymed. — T Clark
Verse LXXXI (last one) — javi2541997
the Tao says: Those who are good do not debate Those who debate are not good. Those who know are not broad of knowledge Those who are broad of knowledge do not know — javi2541997
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