I'm not experiencing any coercion or repression here in Australia. But some people who don't like responding to a public health emergency may consider it so. I have been listening to people talk of the coming collapse of the West for over 40 years. Best selling socialist author Jack London was lecturing on the immanent collapse in 1905. It's always just around the corner. And no doubt, as it must for all systems, the end will come some time.

I do agree with what you are saying, but I think that most people are blind to the collapse that is taking place. Most people I know are just swept along with the news and public opinion, with little critical awareness.

It is incumbent upon the 1% to utilize their superior intellect in the strategizing for inevitable collapse. A critical part and parcel of this will be the buying of much shit paper.

Yes, I believe totalitarianism is coming, but not total totalitarianism. — god must be atheist

What I think we have is more self censorship and people believing that the society is far more totalitarian than it is. And of course, few know what actual totalitarianism feels like as they are few totalitarian societies out there now. What they fear they will get messages like this or something similar:

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In Leviathan, Hobbes describes a natural balance between degree of political oppression - and the costs of exercising such control, and it's those costs that, in my view - the Conservatives certainly, are not willing to pay.

Labour, under Corbyn - might have been a different story had he won in 2019, I think your fears would have been more credible. But I don't see a threat to essential freedoms even from Starmer, less yet from Boris.

Significant opposition from within the Conservatives, to draconian lockdown measures adopted in the short term, suggest a strong desire to get back to normal ASAP.

The biological crises is already happening, the political crisis is the norm, and the economic crisis in under its way. How long until we find ourselves in the new "Dark Ages"? — Gus Lamarch

The biological crisis is total BS, the political crisis is business as usual, and the economic crisis has been simmering in the cauldron for decades.

Jack, this humanity playing-out our necessity to do stupid shit all the time. Try to relax and go with it.

The biological crisis is total BS, the political crisis is business as usual, and the economic crisis has been simmering in the cauldron for decades. — synthesis

Unfortunately, this is the mentality of those who will be the first to despair when the collapse really arrives.

I do not believe that we are on the verge of collapse, but very close - equivalent to Honorius's government - 393 AD to 423 AD - close, but not to the point that ordinary people can perceive it - -.

go with it. — synthesis

Don't go with it.

The biological crisis is total BS, the political crisis is business as usual, and the economic crisis has been simmering in the cauldron for decades.
— synthesis

Unfortunately, this is the mentality of those who will be the first to despair when the collapse really arrives. — Gus Lamarch

Hey Gus, I hate to be the one to break it to you, but the collapse already happened. THIS is the reaction to the collapse.

I do not believe that we are on the verge of collapse, but very close - equivalent to Honorius's government - 393 AD to 423 AD - close, but not to the point that ordinary people can perceive it - -.

go with it.
— synthesis

Don't go with it. — Gus Lamarch

The result of going 'against it' are not wonderful.

I'm not experiencing any coercion or repression here in Australi — Tom Storm

"What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to being governed by surprise; to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if the people could not understand it, it could not be released because of national security.

https://press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/511928.html

https://www.amazon.com/They-Thought-Were-Free-Germans/dp/022652583X

Perhaps attach this to a posts about the rise of Hitler. If you put it here people may think you are a misinformed paranoiac.

Perhaps attach this to a posts about the rise of Hitler. If you put it here people may think you are a misinformed paranoiac. — Tom Storm

Not at all. "I don't feel like things are different" is a terrible way to evaluate your society's loss of freedom. I'm old enough to remember when the left fought for free speech. Now the left is against free speech. The left used to be for equal opportunity, now they're for racial preferences. The left used to be for integration, now they're for neo-segregation, as in racially separate graduation ceremonies and racially segregated corporate trainings. Yet it doesn't "feel" any different to people. The point that I made is valid, even if seemingly extreme.

And remember: Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not watching you.

ps -- A striking illustration of my point is Silicon Valley. When the Internet came into public awareness in the mid-1990's, tech workers and cyberlibertarians thought it would usher in a world of great individuality and human freedom. Fast forward 25 years and it's a tool of massive conformity and leftists censorship. But you only notice it if you've lived through it; and a new generation of Instagram and Facebook users don't even know what cyberlibertarian means, let alone that it was once the great hope of many technologists.

The example I used was extreme, yes. But the point I made is perfectly valid and you should think about it. Maybe things are different in Australia. In the US there is dramatically less freedom than there was 20 or 30 years ago. In fact 9/11 was a turning point in freedom in the US, and not in a good way.

You are probably right to say it 9/11 may have been the start of a whole change in culture in the USA and possibly other countries. But, what I am thinking is so strange is that terrorism seems to not be mentioned at all as a threat to be dealt with. Perhaps, it still seen as a potential problem behind the surface, but it seems to have become hidden.

If you(Synthesis)think that the collapse already happened, what was it? As it is, we have experienced a horrible year, with both the pandemic itself and the lockdowns. I am not sure that would be actual collapse, but it difficult to predict what is going to happen next.

I think that I had noticed a lot of changes prior to that, with people being expected to perform and behave almost like robots. I think that we are gradually becoming dehumanised and even changing as individuals. I am wary of changes which may come, especially biometrics, but I am thinking that potential collapse would be something resembling almost the end of civilisation as we know it. Totalitarianism may be the start of this.

One thing that I fear may happen is a gradual spread into widespread poverty, in the aftermath of the pandemic, alongside a general move towards totalitarianism. The two could almost exist alongside one another. But, it is hard to know what is going to happen, because life is so unpredictable and we don't want what other events are going to take place in the world. We can fear one thing, and something else entirely happens.

But, what I am thinking is so strange is that terrorism seems to not be mentioned at all as a threat to be dealt with. Perhaps, it still seen as a potential problem behind the surface, but it seems to have become hidden. — Jack Cummins

This year it's the virus. It's always something. And the restrictions on human freedom are always seen as necessary; and those questioning those restrictions are terrorist sympathizers one year, covid deniers the next. Not that someone didn't knock down a couple of ugly buildings in New York City, killing the equivalent of one month's carnage on the US highways; and not that there's not a nasty new virus around with a 99% recovery rate. But the associated restrictions on freedom never seem to get rolled back. And if you point that out ...

people may think you are a misinformed paranoiac. — Tom Storm

Like I said.

Not at all. "I don't feel like things are different" is a terrible way to evaluate your society's loss of freedom. I'm old enough to remember when the left fought for free speech. Now the left is against free speech. — fishfry

I think it all went to shit when Lincoln suspended the writ of habeas corpus and shut down the press, arrested editors and banned journalists during the Civil War.

I am aware of having the freedom of speech to even create a thread of this kind on an online site.

I do agree that there have been major moments in history when there have been dramatic curbs on freedom before. I just see the present time as being one of such a sweeping kind. Of course, as you pointed out, we have been in a period of global medical emergency. Everyone, including the politicians, are shaken up. I think my concern is that changes made in the aftermath will be on a long term basis. Certainly, from my point of view of watching news yesterday in England I felt that life after lockdown may be far worse than during lockdown.

However, my concern about totalitarianism does come in the context of being worried about what way history will go. But, that does include ecological issues and nuclear weapon developments.

I have vague memories of a study showing that people tend to worry about the wrong things. This OP is a pristine example - unless you’re writing from Hong Kong.

I hope that you are right that I am worrying unnecessary over totalitarianism coming. I may be reading too much news on my phone. However, when I was at King's Cross station and it was patrolled by police, carrying machine guns, it did feel like some kind of post apocalyptic dystopian world.I do believe that life is becoming increasingly virtual and apps to do most things seems to be happening, as well as cashless transactions as the new norm.

But, I do certainly worry about where history is going. This probably goes back to anxiety about 'The Book of Revelation' in The Bible. However, even though I stopped reading that on a literal level, climate change and energy resources do seem to point to possible disaster scenarios for the human race.

That is terrible about the police carrying machine guns - it wasn't long ago that the British police made a point of not even carrying guns. But then there have been some pretty gruesome terrorists attacks in London the last few years. I do agree that climate change and resource shortages are real threats. But there is not much to be gained by worrying over them.

If you(Synthesis)think that the collapse already happened, what was it? As it is, we have experienced a horrible year, with both the pandemic itself and the lockdowns. I am not sure that would be actual collapse, but it difficult to predict what is going to happen next. — Jack Cummins

When most people reference "collapse," they are referring to economics. Of course, social dis-integration is often on its coattails, but let's chat about the economics.

What has happened over the past fifty years is the greatest transfer of wealth in history. It has gone from the many to the few, and it has mostly been legal, although there has been a great deal of fraud and stealing, as well (as is always the case).

The majority of it has taken place through financial engineering. You could define it's starting point as 1971 when Nixon completely abolished the gold standard for international trade (when much of the creative financial BS initiated).

The result has been thesubstitution of debt for equity on a global scale which has created a super-class of wealthy folks. This caused a severe breakdown in the 'checks and balances' political system of Western democracy which led to the creation of all kinds of additional financial laws that have made everything much worse.

The response to this corruption of the economic system has been the left's rise to power based on a completely false narrative that capitalism is at fault when it was (instead) the political corruption. Of course, the left really doesn't seem to care much about this, only that have something to complain about and somebody to blame. A mirror might be a good start for these mis-informed and mis-directed people.

Just the same, and although it could go the way of Hollywood and all of the dystopian fantasies of the left, the world is much bigger than that and already many countries are beginning to call-out the U.S. for all of this woke non-sense and are suggesting that the adults take charge once again. Seems like prudent advice.

The great lesson of the 20th century was that totalitarianism doesn't work, so I wouldn't worry too much about that part of it. "They" want people to work and buy stuff, and that's happens much more efficiently when people are free to pursue their [whatever].

All this total bullshit from both political extremes is going away once the Elite figure it's time to cleanup their mess and get back to a system that actually works for the majority, one based on relative fairness, freedom and merit.

and it has mostly been legal, — synthesis

It has been legal because those with the gold make the rules.

false narrative that capitalism is at fault when it was (instead) the political corruption. — synthesis

Political corruption: see response above.

the dystopian fantasies of the left, — synthesis

I thought they were the dystopian fantasies of the right? I don't see the left prepping, stocking up, arming up, training for the melt down.

All this total bullshit from both political extremes is going away once the Elite figure it's time to cleanup their mess and get back to a system that actually works for the majority, one based on relative fairness, freedom and merit. — synthesis

That sounds good, except your statement that it is the Elite that must take these steps confirms my first two contentions. Yes, it would be nice if the Elite, sui sponte, reinserted the "enlightened" back into "enlightened self-interest." But they aren't famous for doing so. Sometimes we have to pull out lady razor and bring them to heal.

I agree that capitalism is not at fault. Rather, it is those who self-identify as capitalist who, through the making of rules and corrupting or politics, actually socialize all their costs while internalizing all their profits. And they do this while benefiting directly from society.

People like Elizabeth Warren are capitalists, and they understand this. While AOC and Bernie are an understandable, natural human reaction to the failure of these self-identified capitalist to actually be capitalists. In fact, I have become what I call a "Push-Back Socialist." That is a true capitalist who's sick and tired of the self-identified capitalists running around thinking they defied the laws of physics and pulled themselves up by their own boot-straps, that they "made this" on their own, that they are risk-taking, swashbuckling captains of daring do, all whilst hiding behind the skirts of Big Government (i.e. the corporate veil).

The first step on the road to recovery for these delusional assholes is for them to at least refrain from whining about being taxed to pay a small fraction of the costs they externalize onto the backs of everyone else.

Where we, society, agree that it is better for the whole to let the few do X, because we all benefit from it, we, as society can also agree that if we let the few do X in their own self-interest, then we can tax a portion of their profits to help allay the costs. But trickle down is not part of the "better for the whole" that was contemplated. It's fun to watch the beautiful, wild stallion storm free across the plains, but when he comes down and rampages through the crops planted and tended by people and the work-horses that pull the plow, then he's gonna get shot. And eaten. We will take care of the plow horse, and feed him well. Better even than the dog who must scrounge for scraps around the table. But that doesn't mean the work horse runs the show. If he gets too uppity, he can join the wild stallion and get shot. Maybe go to Somalia or some place that lacks all that big government shit.

Finally, on that point about financial regulation: It has been my experience in life that every single policy, regulation and law came about in response to the failure of someone to mind their manners. It doesn't happen in a vacuum. I'll not leave the self-interested capitalist unregulated in the exercise of privilege (as distinguished from right) any more than I would leave a pack of adolescents and teens alone, unsupervised in a mall. That there is dystopia.

That sounds good, except your statement that it is the Elite that must take these steps confirms my first two contentions. Yes, it would be nice if the Elite, sui sponte, reinserted the "enlightened" back into "enlightened self-interest." — James Riley

Of course, this is why you read the book to the final chapter (to see how it ends).

One might think that because there is such a tremendous amount of wealth out there (in general), that they (the Elite) might believe it is better to share. I think this is where some of the corporate woke-ness is coming from, i.e., better to go woke than go broke (if they come to insert their heads on pitchforks).

Regardless. the left is doing itself no favors by introducing all kinds of ideology that is truly bizarre (critical race theory and the like). Alienating most people is a pretty ineffective method of winning the day. And It well demonstrates their ignorance on many issues and that will be their undoing (just like supporting the riots over last summer was about social justice and not wanton property and life destruction).

The right seems to mostly be concerned with cultural issues, although they have been pretty quiet over the past fifty years when the country has drastically changed demographically. Fringe elements never end well (for anybody).

Socialism (for me) is bad news in all kinds of ways. I go for whomever supports the most freedom and the push for personal responsibility. I would just assume reduce government by 90% and revoke all corporate charters.

I am wondering what impact the whole cost of the pandemic and all of its aftermath will have economically. I fear a far deeper division between the rich and the poor, with many being plunged into extreme poverty. It is far too early to predict fully because we don't know to what extent life will resume after lockdown. Further businesses may collapse and government funds are going to become exhausted at some point. Of course, it will be different in various parts of the world, but it is on that level that I could see the beginning of a big collapse.

Consumer materialist culture has been crumbling before that, but it could be that the infrastructure will shatter really. I am not saying that I think that consumer materialism is wonderful, but we are so reliant on and most of lack the resources and skills to live in a completely different way. Personally, I am very open to alternative forms of economics, such as that proposed by Schumacher in 'Small is Beautiful,' but it is hard to know how they would work in practice. I would love to live in smaller communities but we are so accustomed to shops, Wifi and other aspects of Western life that I am not sure how we could all become new age hippies overnight.

I believe the pandemic will be a little blip on the chart of progress. There will be a lot of good to come out of this, as well, so don't worry too much about it. You sort of have to look at it as a continuum.

You never know and bizarre things can happen, but why worry about that sort of thing? Enjoy your life...it's the only one you've got!

Regardless. the left is doing itself no favors by introducing all kinds of ideology that is truly bizarre (critical race theory and the like). Alienating most people is a pretty ineffective method of winning the day. And It well demonstrates their ignorance on many issues and that will be their undoing (just like supporting the riots over last summer was about social justice and not wanton property and life destruction). — synthesis

True. It's the pendulum swing. The middle gets to say (quite rightly) that each extreme brought upon itself the subsequent slippery slope the extreme tied to warn about in their justification of their own haul of the pendulum to their side. I'm guilty in my stance as a push-back socialist. AOC is, simultaneously, a 1. response to the opposition's extreme, and 2. part of the slippery slope her opposition said would come. I want to grab my pitch fork and follow because I'm so sick and tired of the myths we tell ourselves. In my defense, I am not jealous and I don't want what the 1% has. I just don't like their trying to tell me they somehow earned it. Show a little humbleness, a little gratitude, a little grace.

The right is just as guilty, in recently proving your point: "Alienating most people is a pretty ineffective method of winning the day." That is why they are largely losers.

The right seems to mostly be concerned with cultural issues, although they have been pretty quiet over the past fifty years when the country has drastically changed demographically. — synthesis

And yet their hitch their wagon to a star like Trump. They keep talking Jesus and then they slap Jesus and then they get to say that's okay, because they are forgiven. Okay. :roll:

Socialism (for me) is bad news in all kinds of ways. I go for whomever supports the most freedom and the push for personal responsibility. — synthesis

It's those last two words that are the rub. I've got a whole rant about that, but lunch is on. LOL!

I think that you do not realise the full impact that the pandemic has had on people. Obviously, it is variable according to location and personal circumstances. I had to move twice but I see myself as lucky because when I am walking around the streets in London I see countless numbers of people lying in sleeping bags in corners. There was a homelessness problem before but it has worsened dramatically. I am also aware of families living in a bedsit units because they cannot afford more than one room.

It is hard to know what is going to happen long term, but I think that all the events of the last year are going to be very far from a 'blip', and, potentially the pandemic could go on for a very long time with many waves and countless new variants.

Individuals will vary in how they are affected, in daily life and in mental health. Of course, I do think that with any changes which come economically, or otherwise, we do have some choices in what we make of it. It is a bit like your thread about whether the worst things in life ever happened. My own take on that is that I am inclined to look to the future and dwell on the worst possible scenarios. That can be destructive, but it does allow for a certain amount of planning to try to prevent them. However, thinking about all these possibilities does stop enjoyment.

Nevertheless, in spite of everything, I have to admit that I would probably not have ever used this site as much as I have done, if had not been forced to stay at home, and I do feel that I have learned a lot from the interaction. But, I am looking forward to some easing of lockdown, and will have to avoid the temptation not to go overboard and stay out until midnight every night.

Soma ist die Scheiße! :smirk:

“I don’t know what’s gonna happen, but I wanna have my kicks before the whole shithouse goes up in flames, man.” ~JDM

Assume that the collapse has already happened or is well under way, then plan and live accordingly like late Roman era kynics, stoics & epicureans had to.

Okay, I will try reading a bit of that philosophy. The one advantage we have over the Romans though is that they did not have all the wonderful music we have to collapse with. The Doors may definitely help.

:up: Bartók & Ellington & ... too.