For example, my neighbor, who cut into the slope our house is on, destabilized the terrain, so that our house is in danger of collapsing. As if that wasn't enough, he built the chimney and the AC exhaust right under our living room and bedroom windows. And he laughs!Can you provide an example of the kind of winner and situation you mean? — Tom Storm
Some do that, sure.This doesn't follow at all. People routinely do things they think will make them happy and end up doing themselves more harm than good. — Pantagruel
Of course. Look at their self-confidence, their smugness!I doubt very much that the majority people who live by the might makes right credo qualify as happy. Are bullies usually happy people?
The question is, how do they do it?I've found that the Bungled and the Botched are also happy and live worthwhile, meaningful lives. — Banno
How?SO I take it that the premise of this thread is fucked.
Yes, Christianity tends to be portrayed that way, although I don't see why. Christians have pretty much always been in the position of power anyway.Since everybody is bringing Christianity into this discussion as the salvation for the powerless, — Joshs
But how are Christians "denying themselves"? By not killing everyone they feel like killing?Christian piety arose as will to power becoming sickly and turning against itself, as a strategy of those who were oppressed to gain revenge against those who dominated them by elevating self-denial ( the ascetic ideal) to a primary principle.
I don't understand what you mean.I suggest the terms of the OP’s query, in construing power as an opposition between those who are powerful and those who are powerless, already pre-suppose the ascetic ideal.
What could be more important than winning??What do you mean by "right"? Winning something does not make one right. It simply makes one a winner. — Harry Hindu
Everyone has to die at some point. This is not a consolation.Just look at humans vs neanderthals. Who is now extinct?
We can't insure or sell the house, it's been rendered worthless.Your neighbors sound like assholes. If it is at all possible, even if it's a pain in the ass, you might want to move. — T H E
The latter are religions, and the former still require metaphysical hinge commitments that one cannot take up at will.Yes. Non-religious "theories" that come to mind: Hellenic Cynicism, Epicureanism, Stoicism, Pyrrhonism ... Chinese Dàojiā ... Indian (non-Vedic) Śramaṇa tradition of e.g. Jainism, Buddhism, Charvaka ... — 180 Proof
Thanks, I'll have to look into those (I'm not yet familiar with all of them).(Or is philosophy, like history, written by victors?)
The mainstream tradition of Western Philosophy (Plato-Aristotle-Aquinas + Descartes-Kant-Hegel) is "written by the victors" but there's always been counter-traditional writings by e.g. Hellenes, Nominalists, Immanentists (i.e. radical secularists), Freethinkers, Libertarians, Pragmat(ic)ists, Absurdists, etc ...
There is no world court, no impartial and non-biased scrutiny.It makes right if it benefits you. Conquest, besting or outwitting another, or otherwise doing something you would not wish to be done to yourself, etc. If not, it's wrong. Criminal activity, terrorism, cheating, etc. Hypocrisy is a pledge one takes and a lifestyle one embraces, one that can be sustained with adequate numbers and resources, but if ever placed under impartial and non-biased scrutiny won't stand for much. — Outlander
Or maybe that's an idle fantasy the losers tell themselves. Perhaps homo homini lupus is simply as good as it gets, and that's it.A man without a conscious is no man at all, just another beast of the Earth. They will busy themselves with worldly pleasures, material pursuits, and other vain pastimes until they expire, at which point another will surely take their place. Going through the motions of life absent of a conscious or empathy for one's fellow man, what do you have? A purposeless, transient being who knows only to steal, kill, and destroy. One who will never truly know the finer things in life that do not come with a price tag or physical value, for he will be too busy defending that which does, with mind, body, and soul. A life with little more compassion outside of that which serves the self.
They each have non-religious sects or schools; as far as "metaphysical hinge commitments", those are matters of aesthetic taste (i.e. "the absolute" is in the third-eye of the beholder).The latter are religions, and the former still require metaphysical hinge commitments that one cannot take up at will. — baker
There is no world court, no impartial and non-biased scrutiny. — baker
Or maybe that's an idle fantasy the losers tell themselves. Perhaps homo homini lupus is simply as good as it gets, and that's it.
Sorry, I'd like to believe you; I used to think that way as well, until recent events made me radically reconsider my stance. — baker
Perhaps, as the song goes, we're all just dust in the wind. A man should be firmly grounded in something, even as the tides rise and fall. — Outlander
I haven't jumped ideological ships quite yet, but I do radically question what I have believed so far.Could be. So circumstance dictates your reality. And if something were to work in your favor or ever begin to support the premise, you'd jump ideological ships yet again. Yeah.. that's typically how it goes here. Perhaps, as the song goes, we're all just dust in the wind. A man should be firmly grounded in something, even as the tides rise and fall. But to each their own. — Outlander
I don't actually believe that might makes right -- but I fear it does. Because if you look at how the world usually works: the powerful do get to call the shots.I think might just makes 'I can get away with this for now.' After all, if you really thought might = right, you'd have to acknowledge the virtue of your neighbor --whereas I think you'd like to beat his virtue out of him (I would in your shoes, and that's what would scare me, the fear that I'd snap and end up in prison.) — T H E
Okay, thanks, I looked up those. Not yet sure how they compute in all this.A few things you might want to read around: "ressentiment" in Nietzsche from the blowhards can use this to punch down angle. "bourgeoise morality" is a Marxoid concept for the blowhards to punch up with. The idea of a "justification narrative" is useful in that regard too. — fdrake
I'm not sure what you mean by this.Also, a word of unsolicited advice, don't think you're above and untouched by these things just because you can recognise them for what they are. You're implicated, like I am. No values escape rhetorical context.
In most stories I've seen so far, the person depended on religion. Religion isn't an option for me.
Most others are really just about doing practical things, almost as if the hardship one is experiencing has nothing to do with the metaphysics of the workings of the universe. I find this peculiar and I suspect those personal accounts are holding back vital information, things that the survivor realized when coping with the hardship, but which they conspicuously refuse to share with others. — baker
But who decides what being right is?What could be more important than winning??
— baker
Being right. — Harry Hindu
No, just that since everyone is subject to death anyway, death is nothing special, not a sign of failure.Just look at humans vs neanderthals. Who is now extinct?
Everyone has to die at some point. This is not a consolation.
— baker
Then your point is that no one ever actually wins?
Yes, the resentment festers.Maybe there is something that survivor's can't even find words for, perhaps because it's not conceptual. It's amazing and even disturbing what people can get used to (being 600 lbs, being paraplegic, cockroach-infested homes, working on the cutting line in a chicken processing plant, etc.) But all of these forms of inconvenience and discomfort aren't necessarily as bad as festering resentment. — T H E
There is a point of no return. When one ventures on the path of resignating oneself to a shitty situation, there comes a point from whence on one cannot return to the human race anymore. A point from whence on one will never be accepted as an at least potentially worthy human being anymore. A point from whence on one cannot even conceive of oneself as an at least potentially worthy human being.Yet there's something obscene about noble platitudes in the face of others' suffering, and that's why I suggest a more 'materialistic' approach. If things aren't quite bad enough so that you have to move, a gradual resignation to the shittiness of the situation seems like the only option.
Thanks.I guess I know that you already know this, and I wish had something better for you now and for me when things get bad in my life at some point, as they surely will, us being so damned fragile and stuck together down here. Hopefully it's a little comforting to have your suffering recognized. I guess that's a strategy I use, universalizing my trauma, squeezing what juice I can from it.
What use is, for example, Buddhism without nirvana, karma, and rebirth (as the non-religious secular Buddhists would have it)? It's like a car without an engine.They each have non-religious sects or schools; — 180 Proof
Oh. That's bold.as far as "metaphysical hinge commitments", those are matters of aesthetic taste (i.e. "the absolute" is in the third-eye of the beholder).
:fire:Whether the world is finite or infinite, limited or unlimited, the problem of your liberation remains the same.
Suppose a man is struck by a poisoned arrow and the doctor wishes to take out the arrow immediately. Suppose the man does not want the arrow removed until he knows who shot it, his age, his parents, and why he shot it. What would happen? If he were to wait until all these questions have been answered, the man might die first.
On the contrary, it's more like a Pegasus without wings.It's like a car without an engine
Natural selection?But who decides what being right is? — baker
99% of all species that have existed are now extinct. We could say the same for every individual that has existed.. Who's to say that all species are destined to become extinct like individuals are destined to die?No, just that since everyone is subject to death anyway, death is nothing special, not a sign of failure.
Becoming extinct is a failure in terms of a species. But dying, as an individual, is not failure, because everyone dies anyway. — baker
As far as the Pali suttas go, the Buddha taught nibbana, kamma, and rebirth.Ask a Chan/Zen practitioner. As the Buddha purportedly had taught his disciples — 180 Proof
Yes, the standard passage when one is looking for a thought-terminating cliche.Whether the world is finite or infinite, limited or unlimited, the problem of your liberation remains the same.
Suppose a man is struck by a poisoned arrow and the doctor wishes to take out the arrow immediately. Suppose the man does not want the arrow removed until he knows who shot it, his age, his parents, and why he shot it. What would happen? If he were to wait until all these questions have been answered, the man might die first.
A secularized version of Buddhism (ie. a Buddhism without nibbana, kamma, and rebirth) is a system of beliefs and practices that infantilizes the person who abides by them and keeps them on the level of good boy/good girl morality.It's like a car without an engine
On the contrary, it's more like a Pegasus without wings.
In that case, the prospects for a theory of morality are rather hopeless, if we have to wait for "nature" to deliver the verdict. (We'll possibly be dead by then.)Natural selection? — Harry Hindu
Unless one takes solace and salvation in being a member of a particular species, the above is irrelevant.99% of all species that have existed are now extinct. We could say the same for every individual that has existed.. Who's to say that all species are destined to become extinct like individuals are destined to die?
Is there a theory of how even the losers and the underdogs can have some peace of mind and some sense that their life is worth living? — baker
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