systems — Thinking

As much as systems enable, free, and empower us, they disable, enslave, and weaken us. Remember the fable of the stag with magnificent antlers - they won over the does but also led to its death.

My definition of system isn't applicable here. I take them to be basic.

As much as systems enable, free, and empower us, they disable, enslave, and weaken us. — TheMadFool

:up: :100:



The best system is the education. We have to empower, develop and emphasised this issue. The future completely depends on it. I guess it is the worthy and necessary one.

Even chaos is a system. Everything we know, believe, or desire is the result of what is gathered by our senses and processed by our brain, neither of which are infallible to distortion, be it internal or external (bias, trickery or deception).

Or are you referring to man-made systems such as society and manners, educational systems, law and order, etc.?

Systems of progression are generally helpful. For example, someone who's never managed a supermarket of any size would probably be terribly inefficient or even completely incompetent performing the job of regional manager of a supermarket chain. While someone who has extensive knowledge and experience in doing so would be wasting their efforts managing a small corner store. You start small, become proficient, then progress to the next level. The core principle behind progression is not really a man-made system as it's found all across the natural world but many man-made systems incorporate it if are not derived from it altogether.

It's hard to be any more specific with such a broad term so open to interpretation imo. There's always room for improvement I'd imagine. Beyond that times change, sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. If a system is not adaptable, dynamic, or flexible, one may arise one morning to find it has gone the way of the dinosaurs.. or Blockbuster, for example. :grin:

Imagine feeding yourself without any "systems": no agricultural system, no transportation system, no financial system... You'd have to do everything yourself. Imagine reading a book without any systems: Where would the book come from, and how would you know how to read it?

LIFE is a 4 billion year old system.

What matters to us is whether the systems we have constructed are working well or not. Neglect the maintenance of the transportation system and it will fall apart. Neglect public health systems and people die. Neglect the postal system and it takes a week for a letter to get from one local post office to another. Corrupt the judicial system and crime flourishes.

It's less "the system" and more "the quality of the system". Excellent systems contribute to our happiness. Bad systems are nothing but trouble.

Human derived systems are necessary for survival, yet the paradox is that humans can self reflect and realize that they dont like the system they need to survive, like the work-to-survive socioeconomic bit. Unlike another animal that presumably cannot evaluate their existential situation of having to survive, we can not only evaluate it, but judge it as not great. The paradox of the species that has to be indoctrinated (enculturated) to survive :lol: .

yes man-made systems.

You can feed yourself full without systems, by only following the system of life...read Masanobu Fukuoka's on straw revolution and you'll get an idea of what I mean.

That's where I am at when it comes to systems. Nature itself brings everything to balance emphasizing the Taoist quote "when nothing is done, nothing is undone" if we all stopped polluting the planet and our minds with "systems" that aim to make you believe they are all-important, while leading astray from what is actually important which would be your own self.

↪Outlander
yes man-made systems. — Thinking

So, necessary? No. However if you have two places, one with law and order and one with rampant street crime, theft, looming war both civil and external, and no time at all for peace and being alone with one's thoughts.. well, where would you want to live? That's probably why you can live as a king in some countries where in others you're barely middle class with the same net worth.

Necessary is a dirty word. All a human needs as a necessity is air, food, water, shelter, and nominal entertainment to avoid insanity. All of which can be achieved being strapped down on a laboratory table. Of course, this is not ideal. Furthermore, when one sees what another has, if greater, one devalues or perhaps some would say begins to accurately assess one's own less-than-ideal (another dirty word) circumstance, and will no longer be content and thus require or "need" more. So as you can see, it's complicated. Folks want what they don't need, and so need what they don't want. Curious really.

A system is a description.

It is a logical error to ask if this or that description is necessary.

Is a system an organized approach deliberately chosen, or is it something you are thrown into? If it is both, as it must be, then I guess there are so many systems in operation at once that they are unavoidable and who really knows which is helpful? A system may only be helpful to the extent that it minimizes the negative impact of another system. This happens in politics - it happens with addictions. I wonder if all systems are in the end an attempt to solve a problem.

Ecologies, alphabets and numbers are 'systems' which seem to me the most fundamentally useful.

You'd have to do everything yourself. — Bitter Crank

OH NO!, you'd have to do everything yourself. God forbid. :)

BC, isn't the point of living a adult life to become as independent as possible? Have you been corrupted by these newfangled ways of not doing anything yourself?

Have you been corrupted by these newfangled ways of not doing anything yourself? — synthesis

Guilty as charged.

I just finished a nice pork chop I cooked myself. I could have raised the pig and butchered it. Too much trouble. I could have gone out to California to fetch some grapes, which I also just ate, but again--highly inconvenient.

I will have to wash the dishes (no dishwasher). Is that not suffering enough?

Isn't the point of living an adult life to become as independent as possible? — synthesis

Is it? Yes and no,

I wanted to be as independent from other people's control as possible. I wanted to be independent enough to have executive agency--and the time to use it. A substantial degree of independence can be had, but there are significant sacrifices one must make. One can not buck the system and expect to retire in style. I did buck the system, got more independence than most people have, and paid the price. It was a gamble.

Some people want a lot of security (which usually entails significant dependencies). There are attractive rewards for that particular gamble. Steady work, moderate wealth, comfortable retirement, lots of material options.

The conventional definition of responsible adulthood can be stultifying.

The conventional definition of responsible adulthood can be stultifying. — Bitter Crank

I guess it might depend on what period of time you reference, but to me (I am 66), a responsible adult is one who can make their way in this world independently (more or less) and leaves others to the same task without interference.

By the time one retires, how much do you need?

I admonish encouraging people to follow the systems that make people feel independent. All they do is perpetuate the same unhappiness that you had to live in this technocratic society. All the people walking down the street are nothing but glum and concerned about the next thing... they are like this because they follow all the same systems that society thinks is best for them... they are not happy.