I do not find that 'meat and potatoes' philosophy makes much sense to me. — Jack Cummins
On the other hand, when it comes to trying to articulate what is mystical, it might be correct that Lao-Tzu and Wittgenstein and many others have in mind the same thing, because so little is known in this area, or at least that's how it looks like to me. — Manuel
Yes. My understanding is that you're right. I was talking about philosophical Taoism. I don't know much about religious Taoism. What I've heard makes it sound like Biblical fundamentalism - taking words that are meant to be metaphorical as literal truth. — T Clark
I think you are saying that I am over simplifying mysticism. You're not the only one to make that comment. I think you're right. I'm struggling to defend my vision of mysticism against the skepticism of "rational" thinkers. If we let the occult in, it's hard to defend. Maybe the solution is to find another word. instead of mysticism. How about T Clarkism. Valentinusism. Or maybe stop using the word altogether. I think that may be the correct solution. — T Clark
I always fall back on my favorite platitude - There is only one world. We're all describing the same thing. Your question seems like the silly old "do I really see red the way you do" argument. — T Clark
I don't think there is a simple way to separate the philosophical from the religious when dealing with texts that would venture to address reality as itself. — Valentinus
The realm of humans and their religion is set side by side with the Physical. The only place they touch is where the function of instincts in the Animal Kingdom enters a new dynamic that allows them to change in ways they didn't before. That moment is the one most in need of explanation. — Valentinus
If all our interpretations are just reflections of what we think by ourselves, the sense of sharing a text will be lost. — Valentinus
No wonder people often speak of the ineffable. Perhaps the people who choose not to describe it know intuitively that they would get tangled up in knots trying to put it all into words and concepts. — Jack Cummins
This is just a statement of personal bias. What you really mean is "stuff I don't know anything about", and you fallaciously conclude that this means "stuff we don't know anything about", And when you accept this faulty proposition you can proceed to the deductive conclusion that those talking about it know nothing about it. See below: — Metaphysician Undercover
At dinner I remarked: "How strangely happy I am to-day!" If I had realized then, as I did afterwards, what a great thing was happening to me, I should doubtless have dropped my work and given myself up to the contemplation of it, but it seemed so simple and natural (with all the wonder of it) that I and my affairs went on as usual. The light and color glowed, the atmosphere seemed to quiver and vibrate around and within me. Perfect rest and peace and joy were everywhere, and, more strange than all, there came to me a sense as of some serene, magnetic presence grand and all pervading. The life and joy within me were becoming so intense that by evening I became restless and wandered about the rooms, scarcely knowing what to do with myself. Retiring early that I might be alone, soon all objective phenomena were shut out. I was seeing and comprehending the sublime meaning of things, the reasons for all that had before been hidden and dark. The great truth that life is a spiritual evolution, that this life is but a passing phase in the soul's progression, burst upon my astonished vision with overwhelming grandeur. Oh, I thought, if this is what it means, if this is the outcome, then pain is sublime! Welcome centuries, eons, of suffering if it brings us to this! And still the splendor increased. Presently what seemed to be a swift, oncoming tidal wave of splendor and glory ineffable came down upon me, and I felt myself being enveloped, swallowed up.
I felt myself going, losing myself. Then I was terrified, but with a sweet terror. I was losing my consciousness, my identity, but was powerless to hold myself. Now came a period of rapture, so intense that the universe stood still, as if amazed at the unutterable majesty of the spectacle! Only one in all the infinite universe! The All-loving, the Perfect One! The Perfect Wisdom, truth, love and purity! And with the rapture came the insight. In that same wonderful moment of what might be called supernal bliss, came illumination. I saw with intense inward vision the atoms or molecules, of which seemingly the universe is composed—I know not whether material or spiritual—rearranging themselves, as the cosmos (in its continuous, everlasting life) passes from order to order. What joy when I saw there was no break in the chain—not a link left out—everything in its place and time. Worlds, systems, all blended in one harmonious whole. Universal life, synonymous with universal love!
It was in December, three months after, that I saw my sister for the first time after the experience described, and her changed appearance made such a deep impression on me that I shall never forget it. Her looks and manner were so changed that she scarcely seemed the same person. There was a clear, bright, peaceful light in her eyes, lighting her whole face, and she was so happy and contented—so satisfied with things as they were. It seemed as though some heavy weight had been lifted and she was free. As she talked to me I felt that she was living in a new world of thought and feeling unknown to me. Sincerely, P. M.
It may be that some aspects of certain experiences are beyond speech. However, I think that there is a danger of even taking Lao Tzu too literally, and Taoism is only one perspective. Please don't think I am wishing to undervalue the wisdom of Lao Tzu, or your view. It may be that at some stage in my life I have some experience which will lead me to agree with you. — Jack Cummins
I am interested in that kind of discussion but it just doesn't seem to be what T Clark is wishing to have. — Jack Cummins
T Clark opened this up with a specific alignment to being on board with scientific models as part of the good thing. — Valentinus
I also think that T Clark has arrived at a conclusion, so further exploration of the initial debate is probably more for the open discussion between others. — Jack Cummins
Knowledge is not individual, Meta. It is shared. — Banno
Excerpt from an anonymous, first-person account provided to Richard Bucke and published in his 1901 book, Cosmic Consciousness. — Wayfarer
But I have a hard time believing that even this minority has never felt, at least one time, a feeling that this moment here is extraordinary. One aspect of mysticism would be those situations which can be put in words (inadequately) and made manifest, such as being in nature and suddenly feeling how sublime and impactful the world around may be. — Manuel
Also, I do believe that people who have accessed higher states of consciousness, such as many described by Bucke, which Wayfarer referred to, did not stop at the mystical. The mystical experience is often a source for bringing some kind of healing vision to share with others. — Jack Cummins
Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.