Libravox, a wonderful free audio book site, has the Tao Te Ching in English. I don't know if it has it in Chinese. — T Clark
I'm trying to decide whether I agree with this or not... Ok. I'll agree with a stipulation. I still think "relate" is the wrong word, but I'm not sure what the right word is. — T Clark
I’m not suggesting that ‘sincerity’ as a word cannot fit - only that the way we understand the concept of sincerity consolidates the relational quality so that it stands in isolation, as one of the ‘10,000 things’. There is some ‘unpacking’ that needs to occur to allow its quality to flow freely. For me, there is a noticeable energy flow difference between sincerity in or of the Tao (which is not the Tao), and faithfulness as qualitative relation to the Tao.
— Possibility
I think this is responsive to what you've written. I hope so. The Tao gave birth to the 10,000 things. That is the relation between them. I guess the only one. I have not resolved for myself how we get from the Tao to the 10,000 things. What I always told myself was that it was people naming things that did it, without putting any more thought into it than that. I still think that makes sense, but I'm pretty sure it's not what Lao Tzu had in mind. That's as close as I have come to recognizing a relationship between the Tao and the world. I think the idea of "te," which comes up later in the TTC, has something to do with it. — T Clark
I guess the question becomes: why are we exploring an interpretation of this piece of music? Is it to forge our own personal performance of it, our own interpretation among the many, or is it to help others connect with the truth of the composition, with what the score was reaching towards? — Possibility
Didn't you talk of using peripheral vision ? — Amity
Couldn't this also include - lifting eyes from textual analysis simply to appreciate the sound and rhythm. — Amity
Does this apply to the text? Is our aim understanding or what ? — Amity
Is there a fear that if we don't understand one bit perfectly, then we stay there. Progress halted. — Amity
...like a fat man on skates who hadn't skated in years (but not like a fat man on skates, like nothing but itself) — T Clark
I love this bit. Every time I’ve tried to describe the framework idea in the TTC, whether I use the analogy of a piece of music or a tesseract or a cascade, this kind of disclaimer is always in parentheses in the back of my mind: but not like that, like nothing but itself.
What a beautiful passage. — Possibility
I have called them “ladders” because I see the human values as inferior to the Tao. Possibility has called them “cascades” because she sees the human values as part of the Tao. This is where you correct me, Possibility. — T Clark
On the decline of the great Tao,
There are humanity (jen) and righteousness (i).
As I did for Verse 17, I reference Derek Lin’s translation of Verse 38.
Therefore, the Tao is lost, and then virtue
Virtue is lost, and then benevolence
Benevolence is lost, and then righteousness
Righteousness is lost, and then etiquette
This is a more detailed description of what I’ve called the moral ladder. The verse goes on to say.
Those who have etiquette
Are a thin shell of loyalty and sincerity
I think this is an indication that the elements of the ladder are hierarchical, i.e. top is better than bottom. — T Clark
When intelligence (hui) and knowledge (chih) appear,
There is great artificiality (wei).
The TTC makes a strong case against knowledge and rational thought. This from Addiss and Lombardo Verse 48.
Pursue knowledge, gain daily. Pursue Tao, lose daily. Lose and again lose, Arrive at non-doing.
This is from Chen Verse 3.
Therefore, when the sage rules:
He empties the minds (hsin) of his people,
Fills their bellies,
Weakens their wills (chih),
And strengthens their bones.
Always he keeps his people in no-knowledge (wu-chih) and no-desire (wu-yü),
Letting go of knowledge is related to letting go of desire. Knowledge and desire are connected. — T Clark
I agree that the most obvious difference between the Tao and the 10,000 things is the naming....So, although we may have a sense that this diversity is one, our energy is spent developing relationships with each of the 10,000 things, and then between each of them, in order to try and unify them. — Possibility
What this naming does, though, is divide any relation to the Tao through a process of awareness/ignorance, connection/isolation or collaboration/exclusion in what would otherwise be a completely free flow of energy. An experience of that is not this. It’s not just how we make sense of existence, but how existence (or the flow of potential energy itself, chi) has gradually made sense of itself: from the differentiation of matter from anti-matter or the up/down spin of quantum particles, to the broad diversity of life, the universe and human ideas. — Possibility
I see the TTC as an attempt to understand what unifies the 10,000 things in the Tao without necessarily having to identify and understand each of them individually — Possibility
The difficulty is that self-identity is one of these 10,000 things - and we’re rather attached to this concept (among others) in our modern, Western experience. So there’s a disconnect between the quantitative conceptual structure of modern thought (ie. English idea concepts) and the qualitative experiential structure of the TTC (Chinese idea characters), which we refer to as ‘metaphor’. — Possibility
Meditation helps to explore a clear mind as consisting of qualitative experience, which eventually allows us to explore ideas as qualitative experience, instead of as conceptual structure. — Possibility
But I think that understanding how the logical framework described in the TTC might be translated into a framework between conceptual and empirical reality can also be useful, especially if we’re working in English.
I do think that te (literally translated as ‘virtue, goodness, morality, ethics, kindness, favour, character’) refers to this constructed framework idea. — Possibility
Well, that's one problem. This is from Derek Lin's translation of Verse 1.
Thus, constantly free of desire
One observes its wonders
Constantly filled with desire
One observes its manifestations
These two emerge together but differ in name
The unity is said to be the mystery
Mystery of mysteries, the door to all wonders
This says that the Tao and the 10,000 things are a unity. Others don't say it as explicitly. I'm not sure there is a difference between them. — T Clark
What this naming does, though, is divide any relation to the Tao through a process of awareness/ignorance, connection/isolation or collaboration/exclusion in what would otherwise be a completely free flow of energy. An experience of that is not this. It’s not just how we make sense of existence, but how existence (or the flow of potential energy itself, chi) has gradually made sense of itself: from the differentiation of matter from anti-matter or the up/down spin of quantum particles, to the broad diversity of life, the universe and human ideas.
— Possibility
I really don't get what you're trying to say. — T Clark
Forget Taoism for a moment, in a conventional way of looking at things, don't we understand reality without having to identify every little piece of it? — T Clark
We've discussed this before, although we had some disagreement, the TTC recognizes self-identify, self. I don't see any conflict. — T Clark
I like to think that experiencing the Tao is possible without formal meditative practice. That may well be because I am really lazy. — T Clark
When the six relations are not in harmony,
There are filial piety (hsiao) and parental love (tz'u).
I went looking for the “six relations.” Traditionally China has complex conventions of family structure. Wikipedia identifies eight relations in the immediate family – father, mother, brother, sister, husband, wife, son, and daughter. I’m not sure if this is what the text is referring too or not. — T Clark
When a nation is in darkness (hun) and disorder (lüan),
There are loyal ministers.
As they say, patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. “Loyalty” is one of those funny words. In the TTC, sometimes it’s good and sometimes it’s bad. In this case it’s bad because it represents conventional virtue. — T Clark
Well, considering the Tao is all-inclusive, I don’t see how they can not be part of the Tao. — Possibility
When we lose sight of Tao, all we have is Te: the framework for morality and virtue, or instructions for a benevolent life. When we have no understanding of Te (having already lost sight of Tao), all we have is benevolence as the pinnacle of achievement, the exemplar. When we cannot grasp what benevolence is (having long since given up on the aim of virtue, let alone Tao), the pinnacle is considered to be righteousness. And when we don’t understand what righteousness is, we figure that etiquette, or formal politeness, is the thing to strive for. It’s not a moral ladder, but a reduction in awareness of our capacity. — Possibility
‘A thin shell of loyalty and sincerity’ is not really a judgement of inferiority - that’s affect talking. Someone who strives for etiquette simply doesn’t understand how to be benevolently sincere if they can’t be polite about it. They’re not working from a framework of morality and virtue, so any moral judgement is unfair.
I’ve already explained my understanding of the good-bad relation in verse 2. If someone sees etiquette as the highest good, then when there is no formal/polite way to be sincere they are not sincere, and for them, there’s nothing bad about that... — Possibility
This appearance of being against knowledge relates back to intentionality and wu-wei. — Possibility
And zhī can be translated simply as ‘to know’, but it more accurately refers to the illusion of power that knowledge brings: to notify, inform or be in charge of. — Possibility
Wisdom isn’t just about knowing information or appearing intelligent, it’s about knowing when to act and when not to, regardless of how it makes us look in terms of intelligence or capability. Which then relates to your quote from verse 48: serving the pursuit of knowledge for its own sake (or ours) is different from pursuing an understanding of the Way.
In my view, the TTC is not against knowledge and rational thought - it’s against revering knowledge for its own sake or as an illusion of power, and against acting on knowledge simply because we can or want to. — Possibility
No, I don’t believe it does. It says that the Tao is the unity, the mystery, the door to all wonders. The difference between observing its wonders or its manifestations is whether we relate to the Tao as a relational structure of qualitative experience, free of desire or identity, or as one of 10,000 quantifiable things. — Possibility
The 10,000 things is not just what we do as humans - consolidation, or quantifying by setting arbitrary energy limits on qualitative relations, is basically how the universe has formed. — Possibility
Do you think that we really understand reality? — Possibility
So long as this ‘self’ is recognised as consisting of qualitative human experience (ie. not just as an intellectual capacity) inclusive of the pain, humiliating lack and inevitable loss that comes from actually living and dying. FWIW, I don’t think it’s a conflict, it’s a glossing over of unknown relational structure - a clumsy relation disguised by metaphorical language. — Possibility
Great falseness, in my mind, refers to the assumption that an action is right because it is proven effective; or that we should do something because we can. Might does not make right. — Possibility
No, I don’t believe it does. It says that the Tao is the unity, the mystery, the door to all wonders. The difference between observing its wonders or its manifestations is whether we relate to the Tao as a relational structure of qualitative experience, free of desire or identity, or as one of 10,000 quantifiable things. — Possibility
The 10,000 things is not just what we do as humans - consolidation, or quantifying by setting arbitrary energy limits on qualitative relations, is basically how the universe has formed. — Possibility
I think it’s possible, too - but I think it’s a much more challenging process that still involves controlled experiences of pain, humiliation and loss. The idea is to experience the limits of our human capacity: to push past the influence of affect and explore in detail where thought and feeling meets the will, or where conception meets interoception head-on. Without an experiential understanding of this, we’re just playing with metaphorical language, or going on someone else’s best guess, and we have to admit that we simply don’t know. — Possibility
Yes, I used misleading language. Action, wu wei, including what we might call moral behavior, can come directly from the Tao. I'm not sure exactly how that works yet. As I said, it may have to do with te. That process is superior to conventional morality. — T Clark
That's not how I see Te, although I'm still working on it. My best understanding is that Te is the working of Tao through us in the world. So, it's not a step down to Te or, if it is, it's inevitable. It's how we are connected to the Tao. I recognize that the language about this is ambiguous. I agree with everything else in this paragraph. — T Clark
Sure, calling anything on the ladder inferior is unfair. I've had this argument before. Lao Tzu doesn't make judgements. But... I'm not Lao Tzu so I'm allowed to. "A thin shell of loyalty and sincerity" is not as good as wu wei. Etiquette can, and often does, hide hypocrisy and deceit. — T Clark
I would say that this IS what the text is referring to. Even if your immediate family are in conflict, then you are still required to uphold filial pity - seen not as a choice in Chinese culture but an obligation between parent and child, the most basic and important tenet of society, at one point punishable by beheading. — Possibility
Confucius refers to both filial piety and loyal ministers as the same basic foundation of society. When the nation or society is in entire disarray, these basic virtues must still exist. — Possibility
As I wrote previously, knowledge seems to be connected to desire. I guess striving for knowledge is like striving for success, acclaim, or power. I think you can see in this thread, and really throughout the forum, that intellect, rationality, is a barrier to the message of the TTC. — T Clark
And zhī can be translated simply as ‘to know’, but it more accurately refers to the illusion of power that knowledge brings: to notify, inform or be in charge of.
— Possibility
I can't speak to the specific translation points you're making, but this understanding makes sense to me. — T Clark
So, you're making a distinction between knowledge and knowledge acquired for "ulterior" motives, i.e. acclaim or power. Is that right? I have no problem with that, but I think there's more to it. Knowledge, rational understanding, distracts us from the Tao. It leads us in the wrong direction. — T Clark
Yes, the Tao is the unity, but the Tao and the 10,000 things are the same. That's the mystery. As I wrote, this is a good example of the TTC's ambiguity. — T Clark
I think maybe Lao Tzu would agree with you. I'm not sure. But that's not how I've always seen it. As I've written, I've always seen as creating the 10,000 things as something humans have done, are doing, by naming and using language. This is a work in progress for me. — T Clark
My strategy is to sit here in my lounge chair, drink iced coffee in the morning and beer in the afternoon, argue with people on the web, swim at the Y, and wait for enlightenment to find me. So far, so good.
And, as I've said, "playing with metaphorical language" is everything we do when we think. There is hope, I guess, that experiencing the Tao can help us go beyond that. The Tao that can be expressed in metaphorical language is not the eternal Tao. — T Clark
What attracts our desire to learn, but doesn’t offer a clear set of instructions, we call hope. Potentiality is like this. So is peace, knowledge, success, morality, and the path of a quantum particle. — Possibility
I think it's the other way around - when the natural relationships among family members break down, then you get filial piety. Filial piety is seen as inferior to natural relations. — T Clark
I read this differently than you and Possibility.
The need to exclaim virtues is neither an effort to replace the natural with conventional virtues nor a conflict within families made necessary by dire circumstances. The loss came from not being able to talk about it as a loss when it was happening. That idea had not been minted yet. — Valentinus
[my emphasis]I think rejecting entire concepts, such as intellect or rationality, is as much a mistake as rejecting knowledge. Rationality can be a barrier only when it excludes affect: when we argue that knowledge and desire are mutually exclusive, or that any action we take can be considered free from affect. But rationality can be a way of structuring information in order to observe affect. One could argue that the TTC is a structure of rationality in itself. — Possibility
My understanding of this doesn’t come from the TTC, but from the rest of my philosophical journey - trying to make sense of a ToE. I found that the conflicts I had been having - mainly to do with language and a qualitative-quantitative aspect dichotomy - seemed to dissolve in the structure of the TTC. — Possibility
We can look beyond the metaphorical language and piece together the rational structure on which our qualitative experience hangs [....] For me, playing with the metaphorical language is an attempt to retain an intellectual illusion of control. The TTC lays out how you can go beyond that, regardless of your level of awareness or intellect: embody the structure of Te. — Possibility
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/519719In a certain verse where levels or hierarchies are being described. Descending from some Good Ideal, degenerating to the Bad Non-Ideal. Or ascending...from a lower self to a higher one ? — Amity
Filial piety IS the ‘natural’ or basic relationship, according to Chinese culture. Every other relationship is part of a social, moral, political or ideological construct or convention. — Possibility
The way I see it, te is the self-conscious process by which our relation to the Tao produces action/wu-wei/moral behaviour; — Possibility
interpreting the TTC as a moral code of behaviour, instead of as a relational structure for experiencing the Tao. — Possibility
I think the idea is that when we embody Te, we can directly experience the Tao. — Possibility
I try not to give myself permission to articulate judgements, or to interpret the TTC for others in this way...I think you’re putting judgements in Lao Tzu’s mouth by interpreting the TTC in this way. — Possibility
The need to exclaim virtues is neither an effort to replace the natural with conventional virtues nor a conflict within families made necessary by dire circumstances. — Valentinus
The loss came from not being able to talk about it as a loss when it was happening. That idea had not been minted yet. — Valentinus
It can be a barrier, sure. But I think rejecting entire concepts, such as intellect or rationality, is as much a mistake as rejecting knowledge. Rationality can be a barrier only when it excludes affect: when we argue that knowledge and desire are mutually exclusive, or that any action we take can be considered free from affect. But rationality can be a way of structuring information in order to observe affect. One could argue that the TTC is a structure of rationality in itself. — Possibility
Rationality is what the TTC is, in itself, prior to any relation to it. Isolated, it is nothing. Only when we embody its structure can we relate to the Tao. — Possibility
But it does tempt us to exclude affect and focus on the 10,000 things in isolation — Possibility
I maintain that any ambiguity is in our interpretation, not in the structure, of the TTC. The mystery, in my mind, is the difference. Because they are NOT the same, and yet we have no way of distinguishing between them, because we cannot BE the unity, nor describe it, we can only qualitatively experience or relate to it as an embodiment of Te. — Possibility
My understanding of this doesn’t come from the TTC, but from the rest of my philosophical journey - trying to make sense of a ToE. — Possibility
I guess the way I see it, at some point thinking and waiting in hope just isn’t enough. We’re capable of more than that. We can look beyond the metaphorical language and piece together the rational structure on which our qualitative experience hangs. Either that, or stop trying to understand it and simply allow the Tao to work through the emptiness of a meditative mind. — Possibility
For me, playing with the metaphorical language is an attempt to retain an intellectual illusion of control. — Possibility
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