What about the notion that truth is worth pursuing for its own sake? If you are not a philosophical pragmatist does truth have to have a function? — Tom Storm

You put yourself at risk of Existential OCD if you don’t give it a purpose?

In other words know when enough is enough. Know your limits and acknowledge the end of the journey.

I hear you but the truth of those statements requires more reason than this for me to accept it. Not keen on journey metaphors. You see, for some people (I'm one) the journey is way more important and interesting than the destination.

You see, for some people (I'm one) the journey is way more important and interesting than the destination. — Tom Storm

Perhaps you seek the wrong destination, then. What made you seek what you do? Or even believe or want what you do? Your own human nature? Perhaps.. or perhaps it was your environment and upbringing. Does this world seem to be an ideal place for the best of experiences to be had and formed? The best of ideas and visions of ideal and real desires and pursuits of being both temporal and eternal? Does it?

No need to overcomplicate. People have different views. Mine has served me well.

I hear you but the truth of those statements requires more reason than this for me to accept it. — Tom Storm

How do you recognize reason if ego lies to the mind?

Ego purpose is to create the illusion to preserve emotional health and consciousness.

To recognize truth you must first learn the psychology that drives your mind and why you want to know the truth.

Than discipline the mind to acknowledge the truth, whether it cause distress to the psyche or not.
Because truth will challenge conviction, what we believe becomes our identity and gives us purpose.

So is not just simply reasoning and validating the truth but also prime the mind to accept it when found.

To assume you are ready to accept the truth without mental preparation will just lead you in a never ending cycle.

Mine has served me well. — Tom Storm

Ah, here we go. The classic statement. What I do works for the moment for me and me alone. If only you knew how many men greater than you chose these last words in their pursuits here in this life.. though, perhaps your right, in a sense. What doesn't serve you well? Why not? Why doesn't it? Perhaps because it serves another just a little bit better? Does this advance the human condition or merely the human tolerance of life? These are the questions one may only hope to live long enough to ponder.

Ah, here we go. The classic statement. What I do works for the moment for me and me alone. If only you knew how many men greater than you chose these last words in their pursuits here in this life.. though, perhaps your right, in a sense. What doesn't serve you well? Why not? Why doesn't it? Perhaps because it serves another just a little bit better? Does this advance the human condition or merely the human tolerance of life? These are the questions one may only hope to live long enough to ponder. — Outlander

Ok - so I am not saying it works for me alone. I have no idea who it works for. I tend to hold a soft-deflationary theory of truth. I need an example of something to investigate before I can provide a response. I don't think it is possible to talk about 'truth' in general terms, as it means a range of things. I need details.

I have no talent for metaphysics, I'll take what you say as a comment.

I need an example of something to investigate before I can provide a response. I don't think it is possible to talk about 'truth' in general terms, as it means a range of things. I need details. — Tom Storm

The only thing I questioned, is what you know and I suppose as a result are willing to share. We are similar in this respect, that is to say, you speak from something I assume to be more than a philosophical passing glance, and this is what is unknown to me yet known to you. Now I'm the one who need details.

Beyond that though, my general statement in recent posts was along the lines of what works for you in this moment may not work for you in the next. Or perhaps even that you deny yourself the true destination and yes even journey of enhanced knowledge or virtue, from your own ingrained limitations and belief.

Beyond that though, my general statement in recent posts was along the lines of what works for you in this moment may not work for you in the next. — Outlander

Agree. I do know that people tend to focus on destinations or results at the expense of how they got there. Sometimes the journey is where the truth is found - the destination is merely the excuse to travel. This hit me for the first time in 1983 when I encountered this quote by Robert Louis Stevenson- ".. to travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive, and the true success is to labour." At first I was irritated by this and gradually I came to agree. I understand there is a Taoist saying 'the journey is the reward.'

Are truths useful? — FlaccidDoor

An interesting thought worth putting under the microscope. It goes without saying that people are susceptible to flattering lies and that the occasional white lie is far better than the bitter truth.

Nevertheless, in my humble opinion, we need to unpack this idea a little more to get to the bottom of this rather intriguing puzzle viz. the truth is lies are [sometimes] better than truths.

My take on this is that we're conflating two important concepts, each of equal importance to our well-being; one is lies [deception] and the other is, for lack of a better word, hypotheticals [non-deceptions]. Imagine there'a a woman who's conscious of her obesity. She asks me, after putting on a dress, "do I look fat?" The truth is not just that she looks fat but that she is fat but I discreetly respond, "no, you don't look fat at all". This is what we'd call a white lie. My response is an outright falsehood no doubt but the appeal that the white lie has doesn't come from its falsity but from its hypothetical nature i.e. the woman feels comforted by the white lie because she can imagine herself, hypothetically, that she's not fat and definitely not becauase of it being a faleshood.

It's kinda like me wanting to be X (my idol for instance) for whatever reason. Any pleasure or satisfaction I derive from this fervent desire doesn't arise from it being a falsehood but from it being a possibility, a hypothetical, that can, given the right circumstances, can be actualized.

including lies by omission. — FlaccidDoor

Is failure to reveal a truth really a “true lie” though or simply an “inactive or passive” approach. For example if we take the example of someone with no curiosity for apprehending the truth. They prefer to stay ignorant to such things. Can we really say they are a liar? I’m not sure if I’d agree.

I think to lie actively one must be reasonably sure of the right/ correct way/ truth and then choose to ignore it or actively deceive people.

Someone who “doesn’t know any better” is different to “someone who knows better but chooses not to behave in line with that.

I think many people here see philosophy, in a broad sense, to be a pursuit of truth. — FlaccidDoor

...I don't. Also, hi. :smile:

While methods to reach our conclusions may vary, many here pursue truths or facts about our reality, implying some inherent value in said truths and facts. However in reality, there are white lies or lies that are meant with good intentions, including lies by omission. The truth does not always seem like the most optimal of choices to present to people. Sometimes I have to even deceive myself to get through hard times, implying that falsehoods maybe more useful than truths.

You're contrasting truth with lies, here. So are we talking about epistemological/scientific/psychological "truth", or about "truthfulness"? I consider being truthful as something different than the other forms of "truth" I mentioned, btw. Might be a personal quirk though.

So my question is: Are truths useful? Aren't there falsehoods that are more useful?

There are times when half truths or even whole lies are more useful, in my opinion. Depends on the context. Things are never just "useful" without a specified goal. Books are useful for reading, less so as a main course for dinner.

:up:

Truth by what circumstances? If it is lying in enterpersonal relationships, often it is said to be done so as to not hurt the feelings of others, when it is a much to save ourselves discomfort. Truth to me is what my biology tells me is so, that is how I have the courage to move on down the road. Biological truth is by no means infallible but its the best we have to apply to apparent reality. It may not be true of ultimate reality but that is not the level we function on. The truth about ultimate reality has to seem like abstraction and useless to our day-to-day world, but quantum machanics has proved otherwise, truth is what agrees with judgement.

I got it! you answer the question in your own mind by simply asking it. So I ask you again (or for the first time, sorry I can't quite recall..) .. is it?!

Books are useful for reading, less so as a main course for dinner. — Ying

You made me think of a counterexample.

Some books are to be tasted, others to be swallowed, and some few to be chewed and digested... — Francis Bacon

You made me think of a counterexample.

Some books are to be tasted, others to be swallowed, and some few to be chewed and digested... — Francis Bacon — j0e

I'm pretty sure Francis Bacon wasn't talking about actual bibliophagy... :rofl:

I've thought about this a lot, and my conclusion is that truth is useful in a far more fundamental and long term sense - whereas the lie is short term, and implies costs when falsified. — counterpunch

Lying (which is pervasive and almost universally accepted in Western society) is interesting for all kinds of reasons, but none more interesting than the following...

When I was in my teens, I came across this idea (and I do not remember from where it came) but it seems to have panned-out....

Basically, the idea is that if you lie, 80% of those lies are recognized as such immediately. Another 15% will be found out shortly, and the remaining 5%, eventually. Therefore, one might conclude that lying produces poor returns.

In a society such as the one we happen to frequent, lying is ubiquitous, and it seems as if a great deal of people are profiting from such behavior. Just part of the adult-child thing going on. But is this really the case? Do you believe that any of these people are content, or are they just part of the miserable masses?

I'm pretty sure Francis Bacon wasn't talking about actual bibliophagy... :rofl: — Ying

I wish someone had told me that before I chewed up my copy of his essays.




:starstruck: :sweat: :grimace: :vomit:

Are truths useful? — FlaccidDoor

The universe is pretty good at remembering where it was with everything when I stop paying attention for whatever reason. The car is parked where I last parked it. The house I grew up in has decayed and been somewhat restored by others who live there now. Parrots live in Brooklyn when they did not a few decades before.

Isn't all that pointing toward the "truth"?