The second paragraph just sounds like procrastination to me, something I've very familiar with.

Now the bad kind of patience, if you're taking longer than necessary to get a job done or complete a goal just for the sake of being patient. If you're doing that you're wasting time and time is precious so taking longer to do something just because you want to be patient is foolish if you ask me. Provided that taking longer doesn't change the end result I see no point in taking longer than what's necessary and as I said, you're wasting time if you do that. This is especially true if you're working towards a goal that has a time limit and if you think about it, every goal in this life has a time limit. — HardWorker

I think you are describing procrastination, which is not a symptom of patience.

Patience generally refers to the ability to overcome or tolerate emotional and psychological pressures such as delays, setbacks, impulses and so on.

Procrastination generally refers to succumbing to the desire to avoid doing what you don't want to do.

I don't think someone can be acting patiently while procrastinating. I think too much patience can be a bad thing if you're missing opportunities in which there are many forms.

The maximum of innovative ideas you can have surrounding, let's say, a game you're designing, may change day to day; depending on how much you know about game design.

Patience may be irrelevant but definitely key in acquiring that knowledge.

A motto to live by, 'experience a few clocks before finalizing a product'.

I think you are describing procrastination, which is not a symptom of patience.

Patience generally refers to the ability to overcome or tolerate emotional and psychological pressures such as delays, setbacks, impulses and so on.

Procrastination generally refers to succumbing to the desire to avoid doing what you don't want to do.

I don't think someone can be acting patiently while procrastinating. I think too much patience can be a bad thing if you're missing opportunities in which there are many forms. — Judaka

Good point. What you said about procrastination makes good sense and procrastination is a big problem if you've got a goal that has a time limit. As an example lets say I'm a Boy Scout and I want to make the rank of Eagle Scout. Im Boy Scouts you have up until you turn 18 to become an Eagle Scout, that's the cutoff point. So lets say I start at 11, a common age to start at, that would mean I have 7 years to become an Eagle Scout. Does it take patience to become an Eagle Scout? I suppose you can say it does in that you're not going to be an Eagle Scout on your first day as a Boy Scout. However you don't want too much patience, you don't want to be so patient as to take longer than 7 years to become an Eagle Scout or you will never be an Eagle Scout as you will have missed the cutoff point. But as you said, that's not patience that's procrastination. Something for me to think about.

"The maximum of innovative ideas you can have surrounding, let's say, a game you're designing, may change day to day; depending on how much you know about game design.

Patience may be irrelevant but definitely key in acquiring that knowledge.

A motto to live by, 'experience a few clocks before finalizing a product'."

That's all fine and dandy provided that the few clocks you experience don't take you past your time limit. For instance, lets say you have to the end of the week to finalize your product, you don't and to experience so many clocks as to take you past the end of the week, then you're in trouble.

Patience — HardWorker

To my knowledge, everything that can be said to happen - those things (phenomena/processes/procedures) that constitue the setting in which the concept of patience is meaningful - have a rate at which they occur. For instance, if you're filling your cup with coffee, the coffee will pour into your cup with a certain flow rate which the manufacturer of the coffee dispenser considers appropriate.

Now, the upper limit for any rate is the mind-boggling speed, a rate, of light which is, according to Google, 299,792,458 m/s but the rates we usually encounter in our day to day lives are tiny fractions of the speed of light. The takeaway from this being that rates have maximums and also minimums.

Suppose now that you're waiting for your cup to fill up with coffee. Your cup has a capacity of 250 ml, the maximum rate of flow of your coffee dispenser is 50 ml/s. No matter what you do, you will have to wait, at the very least, 5 s. Given these circumstances, losing one's patience because 5 s is not something you feel you can put up with is pointless and unnecessarily stressful.

That said, there's a minimum rate too and if your calculations show that whatever it is that's of interest to you is happening at a rate less than the minimum rate, you have the right to be impatient and your complaint if any is fully justified.

I've heard that "patience is a virtue" but then nobody likes a person who "takes his own sweet time."

To my knowledge, everything that can be said to happen - those things (phenomena/processes/procedures) that constitue the setting in which the concept of patience is meaningful - have a rate at which they occur. For instance, if you're filling your cup with coffee, the coffee will pour into your cup with a certain flow rate which the manufacturer of the coffee dispenser considers appropriate.

Now, the upper limit for any rate is the mind-boggling speed, a rate, of light which is, according to Google, 299,792,458 m/s but the rates we usually encounter in our day to day lives are tiny fractions of the speed of light. The takeaway from this being that rates have maximums and also minimums.

Suppose now that you're waiting for your cup to fill up with coffee. Your cup has a capacity of 250 ml, the maximum rate of flow of your coffee dispenser is 50 ml/s. No matter what you do, you will have to wait, at the very least, 5 s. Given these circumstances, losing one's patience because 5 s is not something you feel you can put up with is pointless and unnecessarily stressful.

I see where you're coming from, and all too often Im in those very same situations where losing your patience is, as you put it, "pointless and unnecessarily stressful," most notably when Im waiting at red lights.

But aside from that, lets say you're using a dispenser that is able to dispense coffee at a maximum rate of 100 ml/s, are you going to take advantage of that faster rate of 100 ml/s and save yourself 2.5 seconds or are you going to go with the slower rate of 50 ml/s and take an extra 2.5 seconds just because you want to be patient? If the only dispenser you can use has a maximum rate of 50 ml/s then it would make sense to be patient because as you put it, being impatient is pointless, but if you're able to use a dispenser that has a rate of 100 ml/s would you use it and by using such a dispenser does that mean you're impatient?

If you ask me, taking more time to do something instead of less time, provided that it doesn't change the end result, is just plain foolish.

Work takes place in a place. Becoming inured to the conditions of that place is a test of whether one can operate in those conditions.

Accepting those conditions without qualification is a skill onto itself.

If you ask me, taking more time to do something instead of less time, provided that it doesn't change the end result, is just plain foolish. — HardWorker

Agreed, but that has nothing to do with patience. Patience is an awareness that every event or change requires a certain amount of time, effort and attention, and only so much of each is available. The less attention you can give, the more time or effort is required. The less time you have, the more effort or attention is required, etc.

But aside from that, lets say you're using a dispenser that is able to dispense coffee at a maximum rate of 100 ml/s, are you going to take advantage of that faster rate of 100 ml/s and save yourself 2.5 seconds or are you going to go with the slower rate of 50 ml/s and take an extra 2.5 seconds just because you want to be patient? If the only dispenser you can use has a maximum rate of 50 ml/s then it would make sense to be patient because as you put it, being impatient is pointless, but if you're able to use a dispenser that has a rate of 100 ml/s would you use it and by using such a dispenser does that mean you're impatient? — HardWorker

Good question. I was just mulling over this about half an hour ago and what I concluded is that impatience, despite being maligned as a vice, is actually your intuition asking one question1. Can we speed things up? and telling you 2. time is of the essence. These are two sides of the same coin of course; after all if time is a limited, thus valuable resource, we need to use it sparingly and wisely, thus the felt-need faster is better (to save time...for other things).

On this view, an intriguing aspect of the idea that patience is a virtue emerges, to wit, time isn't as big a deal as it's made out to be. A shocking claim but necessarily true if patience is regarded as something good (or not?). Perhaps, by being patient you offer to others your dearest possession - time - and that, it's believed/assumed, brings you one step closer to sainthood.

Saw this sign on a road once:

Be patient on the road if you don't want to be a patient in a hospital — Road Sign

Last I checked, it's still there.

Anyway, there might be something in it for a person who's patient. As they say, haste makes waste.

Agreed, but that has nothing to do with patience. Patience is an awareness that every event or change requires a certain amount of time, effort and attention, and only so much of each is available. The less attention you can give, the more time or effort is required. The less time you have, the more effort or attention is required, etc.

So in my example in my other thread where I talk about working 40 hours per week as opposed to 20 hours a week, where you're making $10/hour and you have a goal of making $400 what you're saying is that working 20 hours a week and taking two weeks to reach your goal does not take more patience than working 40 hours a week and reaching your goal in one week?

Now in both cases, its going to require some patience of course since in neither case are you making $400 instantaneously, but the question is whether or not working 20 hours a week takes more patience than working 40 hours a week since doing so will take you an extra week to meet your goal.

So in my example in my other thread where I talk about working 40 hours per week as opposed to 20 hours a week, where you're making $10/hour and you have a goal of making $400 what you're saying is that working 20 hours a week and taking two weeks to reach your goal does not take more patience than working 40 hours a week and reaching your goal in one week?

Now in both cases, its going to require some patience of course since in neither case are you making $400 instantaneously, but the question is whether or not working 20 hours a week takes more patience than working 40 hours a week since doing so will take you an extra week to meet your goal. — HardWorker

Patience is always relative. Yes, it requires patience to make $400 working for $10 per hour - whether you achieve the goal in one week or two. If someone started one week later on a job that would only pay for those two weeks, would working 40 hours in that one week be considered impatient?

If only 20 hours work is available each week, then more patience would be required by someone with the capacity or willingness to work 40 hours per week than someone working to their capacity at 20 hours per week.

Patience is always relative. Yes, it requires patience to make $400 working for $10 per hour - whether you achieve the goal in one week or two. If someone started one week later on a job that would only pay for those two weeks, would working 40 hours in that one week be considered impatient?

If only 20 hours work is available each week, then more patience would be required by someone with the capacity or willingness to work 40 hours per week than someone working to their capacity at 20 hours per week.

I see what you mean when you talk about the possibility of only having 20 hours a week available to work, but Im talking about a situation where you're able to work 40 hours a week. We know that making $400 will take patience whether you work 20 hours or 40 hours a week making $10/hour but the question is, does it take more patience to work only 20 hours a week when you can work 40? Assuming Im able to work 40 hours a week, if I choose the option of working 40 hours a week, am I being less patient than if I work 20?

I see what you mean when you talk about the possibility of only having 20 hours a week available to work, but Im talking about a situation where you're able to work 40 hours a week. We know that making $400 will take patience whether you work 20 hours or 40 hours a week making $10/hour but the question is, does it take more patience to work only 20 hours a week when you can work 40? Assuming Im able to work 40 hours a week, if I choose the option of working 40 hours a week, am I being less patient than if I work 20? — HardWorker

Only you can answer that. Are you choosing to work 40 hours a week because you can, or because you’re unwilling to wait? Personally, I don’t think anyone’s in a position to morally judge someone else as ‘less patient’ in this situation. If they do, it’s a relative judgement, based on their own limited understanding.

Good question. I was just mulling over this about half an hour ago and what I concluded is that impatience, despite being maligned as a vice, is actually your intuition asking one question1. Can we speed things up? and telling you 2. time is of the essence. These are two sides of the same coin of course; after all if time is a limited, thus valuable resource, we need to use it sparingly and wisely, thus the felt-need faster is better (to save time...for other things).

On this view, an intriguing aspect of the idea that patience is a virtue emerges, to wit, time isn't as big a deal as it's made out to be. A shocking claim but necessarily true if patience is regarded as something good (or not?). Perhaps, by being patient you offer to others your dearest possession - time - and that, it's believed/assumed, brings you one step closer to sainthood.

Saw this sign on a road once:

Be patient on the road if you don't want to be a patient in a hospital
— Road Sign

Last I checked, it's still there.

Anyway, there might be something in it for a person who's patient. As they say, haste makes waste.

You make some good points. Anyway about time being a limited, yes it is. You've only got so long to live. While you don't know beforehand how long you're going to live it is nonetheless your time limit for everything you do in this life. Therefore time is limited and very valuable.

So yes to answer your second question time is of the essence. Now as to your first question about speeding things up, sometimes we can speed things up. In the old days you had to walk, or ride a horse, to get from place to place. Now we've got cars, busses, and airplanes so we can get places much faster. In the old days if you wanted to send a message to somebody who was a considerable distance you had to write them a letter and then send it and wait however long, a week, two weeks, for it to get to them. Now we've got smart phones and can send messages almost instantly to almost anywhere in the world. Those are just two examples. So yes, sometimes we can speed things up.

You are right that haste makes waste, so therefore when you do speed things up you don't want to sacrifice something else in doing so. You don't want to be sloppy when you speed things up. Being patient on the road I believe is a good idea, if by being patient that means not exceeding the speed limit, stopping at red lights, and otherwise being safe on the road. We will always need patience but if you're, say, driving at speeds significantly less than the speed limit just because you want to be patient, if you ask me that is just plain foolish.

Only you can answer that. Are you choosing to work 40 hours a week because you can, or because you’re unwilling to wait? Personally, I don’t think anyone’s in a position to morally judge someone else as ‘less patient’ in this situation. If they do, it’s a relative judgement, based on their own limited understanding.

The stuff you say in your post is quite deep but there is even more to it. For instance, you ask why Im choosing to work 40 hours a week and mentioning unwillingness to wait on my part as a possible answer. Lets say Im working 40 hours a week because Im unwilling to wait but it goes even deeper than that. Why am I unwilling to wait? That's the next question that is raised. Maybe Im unwilling to wait because I want to save an extra week of time by taking only one week to achieve my goal of earning $400 instead of two weeks. I've only got so long to live so by reaching my goal of making $400 in one week instead of two, that gives me an extra week, an extra week in the time I've got to live in the world to achieve more goals. It all adds up.

I do somewhat agree with you in that we shouldn't judge others for being less patient in given situations. The problem is, when somebody else requires you longer to get something done because they want you to be patient.

I do somewhat agree with you in that we shouldn't judge others for being less patient in given situations. The problem is, when somebody else requires you longer to get something done because they want you to be patient. — HardWorker

I can only imagine you keep bringing up this example from personal experience. If someone else is wanting me to ‘be patient’, to slow down on achieving a particular goal, I would think there was more to that as well. I would suspect that they wanted me to spend this available time, effort or attention on something else.

Why leave until tomorrow what can be achieved today? Perhaps this call for patience comes from one’s family or friends, who would prefer that you spent more time with them. Perhaps the call comes from your employer, who needs to allocate those hours to other staff. Or perhaps it’s from someone close to you, who sees the effect that all work and no play has on your health or relationships, or would simply like you to be less focused on trading all your time for money.

Patience is about our awareness of limited effort and attention resources we have available at any one time, and how we distribute it efficiently. Sometimes it’s more efficient to wait until someone else is available to collaborate, because together you’ll achieve more than one of you working alone. Sometimes it’s more efficient to stop what you’re reading and get some sleep, because you’ve just re-read the same paragraph four times. And sometimes it’s more efficient to work only 20 hours a week because you’re more than just a money-making machine to those who love you.

You've only got so long to live — HardWorker

efficiently — Possibility

It all boils down to Packing problems

The goal is to either pack a single container as densely as possible or pack all objects using as few containers as possible. — Wikipedia

The goal is to either pack a single time slot as densely as possible or pack all activities using as few time slots as possible — TheMadFool

The aim is to "pack" as many useful/productive activities into a given time slot, keeping time wastage at a minimum. I suppose such a perspective treats time and space as somewhat equivalent concepts. Come to think of it, we do experience time (we age), doesn't that mean we're 4-dimensional beings?

The aim is to "pack" as many useful/productive activities into a given time slot, keeping time wastage at a minimum. I suppose such a perspective treats time and space as somewhat equivalent concepts. Come to think of it, we do experience time (we age), doesn't that mean we're 4-dimensional beings? — TheMadFool

Well, by my account we are five-dimensional: we recognise that the passage of time is experienced differently according to perceived value/significance. Time is relative - both in quantity and quality.

It depends on what you consider to be ‘time wastage’, and what you consider to be ‘useful/productive activities’. The point I was making here in relation to ‘patience’ is that we are social creatures - we don’t make these ‘packing’ choices in isolation, as evident by the example given here of someone who wants another to ‘be patient’. The time we have is shared, and that awareness, connection and collaboration means that some activities which may appear ‘wasteful’ in isolation are more productive when viewed in a social context.

Well, by my account we are five-dimensional: we recognise that the passage of time is experienced differently according to perceived value/significance. Time is relative - both in quantity and quality.

It depends on what you consider to be ‘time wastage’, and what you consider to be ‘useful/productive activities’. The point I was making here in relation to ‘patience’ is that we are social creatures - we don’t make these ‘packing’ choices in isolation, as evident by the example given here of someone who wants another to ‘be patient’. The time we have is shared, and that awareness, connection and collaboration means that some activities which may appear ‘wasteful’ in isolation are more productive when viewed in a social context. — Possibility

Indeed, time is shared - between people that is - and that immediately complicates the packing problem vis-à-vis time; multiple activities, each with its own aims that are sometimes aligned and at other times diametrically opposed, need to be fitted in an alloted time.

The other problem with time in re packing problems is that time seems to be 1 dimensional unlike space which is 3D. 3D space allows us to do much more, much much more than would be possible in space of lower dimensions. That said, there's parallel processing which, in a sense, makes time 2 dimensional, allowing more to be done in a given time.

The other problem with time in re packing problems is that time seems to be 1 dimensional unlike space which is 3D. 3D space allows us to do much more, much much more than would be possible in space of lower dimensions. That said, there's parallel processing which, in a sense, makes time 2 dimensional, allowing more to be done in a given time. — TheMadFool

Separating out ‘one-dimensional’ time from three dimensional space is a misunderstanding of dimensional structure. How do you think parallel processing occurs? Time is not one-dimensional - it already has a four-dimensional structure in reality. We just need to develop our awareness of this.

Separating out ‘one-dimensional’ time from three dimensional space is a misunderstanding of dimensional structure. How do you think parallel processing occurs? Time is not one-dimensional - it already has a four-dimensional structure in reality. We just need to develop our awareness of this. — Possibility

If you say so! Out of curiosity though, are you a physicist by any chance?

No, I’m not a physicist. Feel free to disagree with me. This is just how I understand it.

Mathematically, of course you can separate out ‘time’ as a linear value structure. And locally, time appears to pass according to this linear progression as measured by the ticking of a clock. But physics tells us that there is no universally linear progression of time in reality. Any linear time progression is relative to a position in space.

I get that you’re referring to a subjective experience of time as a finite ‘possession’. Patience is not about possession, though - it’s about awareness of resources available, not allotted. And as I said before, it isn’t just about time, but also about attention and effort.

So it is’t just that other people make demands on our time, but that they can also contribute their time, attention and effort towards our goals. Including time they don’t share with us.

In Speed and Politics, Paul Virilio argues that the rate at which information travels or military operations are undertaken is the primary determinant of the victor in both military and political battles. He posits that this is extraordinary destructive.

As it concerns information, I posit that information travels both better and faster without any form of implicit coercion. This is as a gift from God, but bears a certain paradox.

A person who attempts to establish a society predicated upon free association, the positive freedom to the negative freedom from coercion, though originally a Marxist concept, be it either as a genuine participatory or representative democracy, can become compulsively addicted to the accumulation and dissemination of information. You end up wanting to be free of what is your most effective praxis.

People also can only either process or disseminate information well when they do so rapidly. It is true what they say about patience, namely that it is a virtue.

When it comes to the battle for hearts and minds, however, in so far that a person's existential status is at stake, which is to say their existence as such, one can only choose to play the game and to play to win.

I can only imagine you keep bringing up this example from personal experience.
-Possibility

Yes as a matter of fact this is from personal experience and from a personal situation.

The aim is to "pack" as many useful/productive activities into a given time slot, keeping time wastage at a minimum. I suppose such a perspective treats time and space as somewhat equivalent concepts. Come to think of it, we do experience time (we age), doesn't that mean we're 4-dimensional beings?

Yes you've hit the nail right on the head, its all about not wasting time and getting as much done as you can, and doing as good a job as you can, in the least amount of time. We are four dimensional beings living in a four dimensional world. Are four dimensions are height, width, depth, and time.

Well, by my account we are five-dimensional: we recognise that the passage of time is experienced differently according to perceived value/significance. Time is relative - both in quantity and quality.

I don't see how time is relative, a second is a second, a minute is a minute, an hour is an hour, a year is a year, a decade is a decade, any way you look at it. One minute of my life is just as long as one minute of your life.

The other problem with time in re packing problems is that time seems to be 1 dimensional unlike space which is 3D. 3D space allows us to do much more, much much more than would be possible in space of lower dimensions. That said, there's parallel processing which, in a sense, makes time 2 dimensional, allowing more to be done in a given time.

Space is four dimensional. Time is just another form of space along with height, width, and depth. Time can be defined as, "the space between two intervals," so there you have it, time is space.

So anyway, concerning patience, I recently completed this program where I learned about jobs with deadlines. Lets say you've got a job where you have to do a project, you've got a deadline in which to get the project done. In other words, you have to get the project done by a certain date, the date is the deadline.

Now, are you going to be patient and take longer than your deadline to get your project done? If you do you won't keep your job. This is what Im talking about when I say that in some ways, that some sorts of "patience" is bad, and that being patient, in some ways, can be foolish.