And hell: — BigThoughtDropper

Ironically, I've noticed this Wayne-ism all the time just lately.

do you think that this version of masculinity has a place in the modern world? — BigThoughtDropper

If it means something to you, sure. Otherwise, it shouldn't be a huge problem I don't think.

Rudyard Kipling describe "what a man should be", I kinda like it, even if it is probably impossible to fulfill:

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
Or being hated, don’t give way to hating,
And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream—and not make dreams your master;
If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build ’em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: ‘Hold on!’

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!


:wink:

Toxic Masculinity is derivative of Fragile Masculinity.

I used to monitor an internet Conservative safe space; a place where “men” could go to whine, and cry, and bitch with impunity. These men fancy themselves strong, and wise. The moderators and administrators ban anyone who is liberal, and who dares to stand on his hind legs; giving as good as he gets.

Back when there was a national discussion about “toxic masculinity”, I found their bitching to be unseemly, un-manly. Initially, it made me feel embarrassed for them. But I got over that. Anyway, I penned the following back then:

Strong cannot complain about weak, and wise cannot complain about stupid. It’s impossible.

An indicator of Toxic Masculinity is a self-identified strong man complaining about what he perceives to be weakness.

An indicator of Toxic Masculinity is a self-identified wise man complaining about what he perceives to be stupidity.

An indicator of Toxic Masculinity is a self-described “man” complaining.

A real man won’t complain, not even in the privacy of a safe space, among his peers; peers he likes, but who might also be complaining.

One might ask: Does my assessment run afoul of the notion that a man should not suppress his feelings, or turn his feelings inward, where they might manifest themselves in stress, health problems, addiction; or release as anger or cruelty toward others?

No. Because a real man doesn’t *try* to not complain. He doesn’t have to try. A real man doesn’t complain because he is truly strong, he is truly wise, he has broad shoulders, he has deep empathy for others, *especially* the weak and stupid, and, most important of all, he is humble. He is all this, because life has taught him how weak and stupid, he truly is; and he learned that lesson.

So, the next time you and the boys are sitting around bitching and laughing about women, or the skinny-jeaned, bearded, latte-drinking, limp-wristed liberal stranger with the Che tee shirt; that is when you look for the man who’s not joining in your cliquish bullying. Look for the man who is not judging you and the boys for being the way you are; not judging you for exhibiting your weakness and stupidity; not judging you for your humanity. Look for the man who might not even be there with you.

But look for him. Find his burden, shoulder some of it, STFU, embrace the suck, and lean in to it; not because you are trying to be a real man, but because you truly love to help. You especially love to help those who are not as strong or as smart as you and the “real men” who complain about them.

As a strong, wise man, you have nothing to fear from the truly weak and stupid. If they are your burden, then you don’t complain about them; you carry them, like a man. To do otherwise is to be a bully. That is Toxic Masculinity.

This may be an ideal that few can achieve, but it’s not really an achievement. It’s a way of heart. It’s doing your best, and better. It’s knowing what to look for in examples you want to follow. And examples to set for sons and daughters. It’s knowing no one is perfect, especially yourself.

It’s not merely physical bullying. There are countless professors across this nation who have an understanding of the Socratic Method, and yet they fail to live up to it. The two most important and overlooked aspects of the Method are these: 1. You must understand how little you know; and, 2. Your curiosity must be genuine; because logic weaponized ceases to be logic. Without these two crucial ingredients, the world is left with many self-identified “wise men” hating on self-identified “strong men” as weak and stupid. This is in addition to many self-identified “strong men” hating on “self-identified “wise men” as weak and stupid. Both sides are correct in their assessments of the other, but they are wrong for the hating.

This brings me to the truths which I often find counter-intuitive. I rarely look for “strong and wise” in locations where people tell me they can be found (especially people who self-identify as strong and/or wise). I look instead for those people who carry the load in silence, and love it. And often times I find those people don’t have dicks.

Those on top of the pyramid who continue to look up, or out, are worthy of my shoulders to stand upon, and I will allow them to stand there, and I will try to boost them even further. They have a grace and gratitude worthy of my support.

Those who look down, however, can support me with their rotting carcass, for all I care. I have no problem stepping on and over them. I just struggle to refrain from complaining about them because, really, there is no difference between bitching and being a bitch.

This is where I struggle with learning how to love my enemy. That's another step on the journey.

And which is more hell: you’ll be a Man, my son! — Manuel

Helping people can be a weakness. Save yourself first or you can't save someone else, I say. We all have a conscious and unconscious mind. One of them is good, the other sinful. Who you are is which "mind" you truly are

Yeah, no kidding...

(If I am wrong please let me know!) — BigThoughtDropper

You're wrong. About me, in any case. About age, in any case.

If we are to use actors who played cowboys, or cowboy characters, as examples of masculinity, I'd choose Richard Boone as Paladin in the old TV show Have Gun. Will Travel. A hired gun or mercenary, and therefore dangerous when necessary, but urbane, well-read, sophisticated, and with a sense of justice.

My question is this: do you think that this version of masculinity has a place in the modern world? — BigThoughtDropper

I don't think it ever occupied a place in the modern world except as a fashionable – and yes "toxic" – archetype. Raised 'urban working-class' mostly in the 1970s by a supremely able and loving mother but without a father, "being a man" has come to mean this to me:

To be a person who conscientiously respects and cares for himself, and those whom he loves, while living as self-sufficiently as circumstances allow and always with courage & humor ...

I imagine "being a woman" is very similar. It's a standard to strive to live up to, I think, rather than a stereotype with which to disguise / straitjacket our socialized neuroses, inadequacies and anxieties; unfortunately, the latter is more often the case than not, mostly as occupational hazards (re: e.g. cops, prisoners, firemen, soldiers, construction workers, surgeons, bankers-financiers, athletes, coaches, politicians, gangsters, cowboys, farmers, etc).

If we are to use actors who played cowboys, or cowboy characters, as examples of masculinity, I'd choose Richard Boone as Paladin in the old TV show Have Gun. Will Travel. A hired gun or mercenary, and therefore dangerous when necessary, but urbane, well-read, sophisticated, and with a sense of justice. — Ciceronianus the White

I remember watching him (probably in re-runs) but I suspect you are a hair older than me. I grew up on the 50s, 60s and 70s TV Westerns, but I found my home and came of age with the man with no name, Sergio Leone and spaghetti westerns. I'll still squint with Clint on occasion. I've got Ennio Morricone all over my play lists. LOL!

I liked Paladin's business card. Wire San Francisco. The only better one was the most interesting man in the world, which simply said: "I'll call you."

I don't know what the actual ratio of young and old is here. I'm 75 and not the oldest guy here. There are many more men than women here (at least as far as I know).

I grew up in a working class family too; I'm gay and felt like an outsider in my small rural hometown. What it meant "to be a man" was a conflicted issue, though as I got older that resolved.

Hyper-masculinity and hyper-femininity exist but probably are not all that desirable as goals. Most men fall along the mid-line of masculine behavior and appearance--whether they are gay or straight. There are class differences in ideal types. There are a lot of ways one can slice and dice the population and a lot of these sortitions are valid. My idea of "A Real Man" is a male who has become an adult (characterized by features like: grown-up behavior, responsibility, reasonably conscientious, reasonably reflective, reasonably well informed about the world...) Beyond that there is a wide range of options available.

The Man with No Name certainly must be taken into account.

The Good, the Bad and the Ugly is of course a classic, but of Eastwood's Western films I particularly enjoyed High Plains Drifter for its oddness and Eastwood's portrayal of its mysterious anti-hero.

Have Gun. Will Travel was also a radio show. You can hear it on Sirius/XM Radio Classics.

do you think that this version of masculinity has a place in the modern world? — BigThoughtDropper

This version of masculinity has a place among those who think such a thing as masculinity exists as a set of behavioral attributes grounded in biology. I suppose it also has a place among those who think that it is just an arbitrary set of features someone pieced together from traditional cultural assumptions, and that an almost infinite number of alternatives could work just as well.

Girls flock to me but I ignore them because I prefer philosophy. I buy a girl once a month and that's enough for me

David Packman is the perfect male I think.

What is it like to be David Packman?

Is there something it is like to be a man?

Is there something it is like to be a man? — bert1

I know almost as much about what it's like to be a bat as what it's like to be a man. It sounds like the kind of question to pose to a focus group in pitching a new style of disposable razor. My own intuition is just to get on with it and be.

I once met a group of ten-year-olds who's greatest concern was what it is to be a Man - they called it the "Real Man Test".

They seem to have grown up and joined this forum.

I told that group of boys about a friend who was farmer on a small acreage, a rough-and-ready man of few words. We were talking about the book Real Men Don't Eat Quiche - so this conversation was forty yers ago. My friend's only comment was "Real men eat what they fuckin' like".

"being a man" has come to mean this to me:
To be a person who conscientiously respects and cares for himself, and those whom he loves, while living as self-sufficiently as circumstances allow and always with courage & humor ... — 180 Proof

:up:

I buy a girl once a month and that's enough for me — Gregory

New Yorker Cartoon caption (below sketch of 2 guys chatting)

Last summer I tried using prostitutes and found it surprisingly affordable.

Ain't nuthin worse than 30 pounds of testosterone in a 20 pound sack.

A real man is someone who is a father, an Olympic champion, a stepfather, a husband, a multi-millionaire, someone who raises billionaire daughters and step-daughters, an international celebrity, and someone who will be the next Republican governor of California. He is all that and America's sweetheart.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/leo-terrell-advises-caitlyn-jenner-to-run-like-a-trump-republican-in-bid-for-california-governor

:lol:

As a man you should not complain too loudly about difficulty or pain, you should expect hardship and bear the burden, you should never use your physical strength to harm those weaker than you, you should use your strength to help those weaker than you, you should be the first to volunteer, et al. — BigThoughtDropper

:rofl:

... a friend who was farmer on a small acreage, a rough-and-ready man of few words. We were talking about the book Real Men Don't Eat Quiche - so this conversation was forty yers ago. My friend's only comment was "Real men eat what they fuckin' like". — Banno

Right on, man! :lol: :up:

Best OP and discussion of masculinity I’ve read on this forum so far. As one of the few women frequenting here, I sincerely appreciate your approach to the topic.

As a man you should not complain too loudly about difficulty or pain, you should expect hardship and bear the burden, you should never use your physical strength to harm those weaker than you, you should use your strength to help those weaker than you, you should be the first to volunteer, et al. — BigThoughtDropper

For me, it’s only the focus on actuality (observable/measurable reality) that differentiates your description from what is often expected from women (by men). A ‘good woman’ should not complain too loudly about potentially difficult or painful situations. She should bear the burden of emotional or circumstantial hardship. She should never use her capacity to make anyone feel less capable, and should instead use her capacity to build on the strength and ability of others. She should always be prepared to help without needing to be asked or acknowledged.

I don’t want to draw attention away from the core discussion here - I just found this an interesting parallel.

Hmmm.

The difference is the presumption that physical strength is a male characteristic, emotional strength, feminine. Was that your intent?

Suppose I re-phrased the OP:

As a human you should not complain too loudly about difficulty or pain, you should expect hardship and bear the burden, you should never use your physical strength to harm those weaker than you, you should use your strength to help those weaker than you, you should be the first to volunteer, et al. — BigThoughtDropper

against

A human should not complain too loudly about potentially difficult or painful situations. You should bear the burden of emotional or circumstantial hardship. You should never use your capacity to make anyone feel less capable, and should instead use their capacity to build on the strength and ability of others. You should always be prepared to help without needing to be asked or acknowledged. — Possibility

Is there something amiss here?

The difference is the presumption that physical strength is a male characteristic, emotional strength, feminine.

Was that your intent? — Banno

It does highlight that presumption, doesn’t it? The use of ‘physical’ and ‘emotional’ probably aren’t even necessary. But it also highlights the question of potency.

Suppose we further altered the OP:

As a human you should not complain too loudly about difficulty or pain, you should expect hardship and bear the burden, you should never use your physical strengths to harm those weaker than you, you should use your physical strengths to help those weaker than you, you should be the first to volunteer, et al. — BigThoughtDropper

The last phrase I still think is focused on an observable/measurable reality - specifically evidence of potency. Why does someone need to be the first to volunteer? If you’re second or third, what does that mean?

Interesting. So:

...do you think that this version of masculinity has a place in the modern world? — BigThoughtDropper

What distinguishes "this version of masculinity" is an emphasis on physicality.

Sure, let it "have a place"; but it's mundane, somewhat anachronistic, and needlessly restricting. So let's not commend it.

Your edits of the OP are definitely more to my liking. As for the physical-emotional dichotomy, my cruder(?) corollary has always been – observing 'grown females' among family & friends compared to 'grown males' – that males tend to be sprinters (out of the gutter, peeps) and females relay or distance runners. Explosive strength and endurance strength (which are complementary). Each sex is constituted by both strengths and individuals vary in the ratio of complementary strengths manifest in their respective dispositions. Yin-Yang, right? Still, perhaps due to the traditional straitjackets of gender-socialization, females, on average, are "built" to endure labor-pains, acute menses, child bereavement & interminable patience; males, on average, seem fragile by comparison and thereby psychologically "need" to overcompensate for our actual and perceived inadequacies. Whatever. 'Hermaphroditic polymorphs' shoehorned into (orthoprax) gender roles? :eyes: I don't know.