Then how is it that we happen to have these two distinct words? — Banno

If this is the illusion, we wouldn't know the method/s the real world uses to produce it. As @Manuel said, it could be the dream of the third turtle down, in a world in which there are turtles all the way down.

There is a difference between being hit by a truck and having the illusion of being hit by a truck. — Banno

There may be a difference, but the subject/s of the illusion wouldn't know it. The illusion would be indistinguishable from reality for the subject/s.

As we cannot prove this is reality, and we cannot prove this is an illusion, I am thinking the odds are equal, but @Manuel made an interesting point:

Things looks like either we are in an infinite number of hypothetical worlds or in the real world. So it's not even that there's an equal chance of either being the case, there's an infinite number of options on one side and only one option on the other. — Manuel

Ah, the eternal sceptic.

You can't be proven wrong, but you can be shown to be foolish.

If this post is an illusion of the third turtle down, then there is a first turtle.

We can only talk of illusions because we understand the difference between illusion and reality.

Someone must've mentioned this already but just in case no one has, I'll say it.

The possibility that reality could be an illusion is predicated on our inability to distinguish reality from illusion (deus deceptor, brain in a vat, simulation). In other words reality is, in every sense, identical to illusion. If so, it doesn't matter if we're in an illusion or reality, right? Both are, if you really think about it, one and the same thing. Were they not, the question, "are we in an illusion?" would never have seen the light of day so to speak.

The possibility that reality could be an illusion is predicated on our inability to distinguish reality from illusion (deus deceptor, brain in a vat, simulation). In other words reality is, in every sense, identical to illusion. If so, it doesn't matter if we're in an illusion or reality, right? Both are, if you really think about it, one and the same thing. Were they not, the question, "are we in an illusion?" would never have seen the light of day so to speak. — TheMadFool

Except those in reality could turn off our illusion at any time. :grimace:

Then how is it that we happen to have these two distinct words?

There is a difference between being hit by a truck and having the illusion of being hit by a truck. — Banno

There is a difference between what is and what we can perceive. There are two distinct words, illusion and reality, because there are differences between what is an illusion and what is reality. However, that does not mean that we can perceive that difference when we encounter illusions or reality in our lives. If the experience of getting hit by a truck in a world of illusion is the same as the experience of getting hit by a truck in reality then how would you tell the difference? Furthermore, if all you have ever experienced is the world of the illusion then how would you even know what a real truck feels like?

The possibility that reality could be an illusion is predicated on our inability to distinguish reality from illusion (deus deceptor, brain in a vat, simulation). In other words reality is, in every sense, identical to illusion. — TheMadFool

I think what you describe is one possibility, but the one does not necessarily follow from the other. It is possible that both our reality and the more fundamental reality are the same in many ways, but it is also possible that they are not. We can only imagine them as the same because it is impossible to imagine anything beyond the limits of our understanding. That is the only reason the examples we come up with are so grounded in our own reality. However, the real source of the problem is in the fact that we have no way to "look behind the curtain" so to speak and see whether our reality is independent or dependent on another reality.

There is a difference between what is and what we can perceive. There are two distinct words, illusion and reality, because there are differences between what is an illusion and what is reality. However, that does not mean that we can perceive that difference when we encounter illusions or reality in our lives. If the experience of getting hit by a truck in a world of illusion is the same as the experience of getting hit by a truck in reality then how would you tell the difference? Furthermore, if all you have ever experienced is the world of the illusion then how would you even know what a real truck feels like? — Andrew F

Indeed, all very well-covered territory, the stuff of neo-phyte wet dreams... (see what I did there??)

Tell me, given the choice betwixt the illusion of being hit by a truck, and being hit by a truck, which would you choose?

If you have any sense, you would choose the illusion, and with very good reason: in one, you have been hit by a truck, while in the other, you haven't. Yes, yes, all that stuff about it being impossible to tell the difference and so on - but despite that - even if the experiences are the same - in the one case you have been hit by a truck, in the other, you haven't.

Furthermore, even if all you have and might experience is the world of illusion, the distinction between an illusion and reality remains. Sure, you don't know the difference, but you still haven't been hit by a truck.

Y'see, even in positing the all-encompassing illusion, you are contrasting the illusion with reality; and ipso facto, positing reality.

Wittgenstein, Moore and all that. The Matrix wasn't all that clever.

For me, it doesn't matter if it's an illusion/simulation or not. What ever it is, it exists. Now, why? If we can figure that out, even if it is a simulation, I think we'll have outdone the simulators.

Tell me, given the choice betwixt the illusion of being hit by a truck, and being hit by a truck, which would you choose? — Banno

The problem with this question is that it is not a matter of which one I would want to get hit by, but which one I do in fact get hit by.

Y'see, even in positing the all-encompassing illusion, you are contrasting the illusion with reality; and ipso facto, positing reality. — Banno

I'm not sure what positing reality has to do with whether or not we are in an illusion or reality.

The main question for me is, what kind of evidence do I have that our world is an illusion or reality? And so far as I know, the answer is zero on both accounts.

The problem with this question is that it is not a matter of which one I would want to get hit by, but which one I do in fact get hit by. — Andrew F

Indeed; and the point is that in fact you can only get hit by the real truck... Think on it a bit*.

I'm not sure what positing reality has to do with whether or not we are in an illusion or reality. — Andrew F

Really? (Pun intended...)

The main question for me is, what kind of evidence do I have that our world is an illusion or reality? — Andrew F

Of course it is zero - that's the joke! To think this zero shows something interesting is to show a deep misunderstanding of the difference between reality and illusion.

Edit: * for those having a hard time with this, if you get hit by an imaginary truck, you haven't in fact been hit by a truck...

@Banno

Why can you not get hit by the illusory truck? Do you think that illusions do not exist, or are you saying that they are not physical or that they cannot be felt? Are you saying that there is one thing called a real truck and one thing called an illusory truck, and that one can be felt and one cannot? Perhaps I now get what you were saying about positing reality. I'm guessing you were implying that there must then exist a thing called the world of reality and thing called the world of illusion. But these things are not known to exist except in conception. Figuring out which one exists is the problem at hand.

Why can you not get hit by the illusory truck? — Andrew F

It's kinda in the premise...

But it seems you are starting to understand. Again, you can't have an illusion except in contrast to reality.

@Banno

The point of my questions were to show that I disagree with your premise. Of course, even an illusory truck is real in a sense. When we are talking about whether our world is an illusion or reality, our world is still real in the same sense. That is, it still exists, and we still have our experiences in it, etc.

Yeah, not so much. The thing about illusions - the bit that makes them an illusion - is quite specifically that they are not real. So no, they are not "real in a sense"... unless, of course, all you are saying is that they are real illusions.

Except those in reality could turn off our illusion at any time. :grimace: — Down The Rabbit Hole

I never said that we couldn't have an illusion within an illusion à la The Truman Show. Jim Carrey's acting was superb.

I think what you describe is one possibility, but the one does not necessarily follow from the other. It is possible that both our reality and the more fundamental reality are the same in many ways, but it is also possible that they are not. We can only imagine them as the same because it is impossible to imagine anything beyond the limits of our understanding. That is the only reason the examples we come up with are so grounded in our own reality. However, the real source of the problem is in the fact that we have no way to "look behind the curtain" so to speak and see whether our reality is independent or dependent on another reality. — Andrew F

My bad, I wasn't clear enough. Even if one, somehow, experienced what in Eastern religions is referred to as an Awakening, one would never really be certain that one has...awakened for the exact same issue we had regarding the authenticity of what we left behind, awakened from, would persist even in what we now believe, after having allegedly "awakened", is the real deal, true reality. Why do you think this is so? Any ideas?

@Banno

I see. We are operating under different definitions of illusion and reality. I think people use the word illusion in these types of conversations because it implies a deception, that something about our world is not what we expected, there is something else beyond, something unknown. Illusion is just an easy way to summarize all these feelings. When I talk about illusion and reality, in the context of this type of conversation, I am generally talking about a world within a world. The world within the world being the "illusion" and the world beyond it or above it being the "reality." However, this is just the common language that has been used to describe this problem so far. In a strict sense, an illusion of a truck is opposed to a real truck (as you have been stating). The illusion of a truck is different from the real truck because it is missing some important property or properties that are found in the real truck. When I talk about the "illusory" world I am not implying that there is a "real" world that it is copying because that would be to imply that every entity in our world has a more real copy in another world. That would be limiting the problem unnecessarily. In the brain in a vat example, the "real" world only has a brain and a vat. There are no trucks in that world, and so the truck in the illusory world would not, by your definition, even be illusory. It is not necessarily trucks that are illusory. It's moreso the fabric of the universe itself. I'm sure there is a better word to use than "illusory" and "real," but they are the common language when talking about this problem in this thread and I don't know of a more appropriate common set of words.

@TheMadFool

Are you saying something like, "you don't know what you don't know?" Meaning, you can never know how much more knowledge potentially lies beyond your current understanding, and so you could always doubt whether, using your example, you are truly awakened?

Are you saying something like, "you don't know what you don't know?" Meaning, you can never know how much more knowledge potentially lies beyond your current understanding, and so you could always doubt whether, using your example, you are truly awakened? — Andrew F

No! My question to you is this, why (give reasons) did the possibility of reality being an illusion arise in the first place?

Why do I ask? If that reason persists, is a part of what we believe is the genuine thing, authentic reality then, we're back to square one, not having made an inch of progress.

@TheMadFool

I'm not really sure. Some people are inquisitive or skeptical and they imagine possible explanations for the existence of our world.

I'm not really sure. Some people are inquisitive or skeptical and they imagine possible explanations for the existence of our world. — Andrew F

That's a bummer! Sorry!

I never said that we couldn't have an illusion within an illusion à la The Truman Show. Jim Carrey's acting was superb. — TheMadFool

It's been a while since I've seen that film. With Jim Carrey worth a review.

Presumably, if base reality turns off the illusion, the illusions within that illusion go off too.