So the good is pleasure and the bad is pain. Therefore living well must have something to do with obtaining more pleasure while minimizing pain. — Marchesk
A non-hedonistic approach to living well might be more complicated, at least in concept. I wanted to knowhow one was supposed to live well by knowing what is good, which of course depends on what it means to "live well" and "good". — Marchesk
If hedonism is the case, then pursuing pleasure would be to live well, right?
That tends to be what I think, but I won't deny there are moments of intense pleasure, or just feeling real good after feeling crappy where I think to myself that all I care about is feeling good.
But then if I could be wireheaded to sit on my couch all day, everyday, doing nothing but blissing out, and assuming my needs were met, is that what I really want?
I don't think so. So then it becomes the question of whether pleasure is what I want, or pleasure is an indicator of what I want. And I think it's often the latter.
That being said, there have been experiments with rodents in which they push a button that induces intense pleasure from electrodes in their brain directly stimulating their pleasure center. The rodents will do this at the expense of eating or drinking until they die. — Marchesk
Of course my pessimism comes in with the notion that we must find meaning through struggle, and that we cannot simply be without some source of stimulus or excitation. Existence without any need, desire, goals would simply be enough. However, this is for all intents and purposes an impossibility from the start and incomprehensible as to how that sort of existence even looks like. — schopenhauer1
Well, if you let go of the narcissistic expectation that life was supposed to be perfect, much of the philosophy of pessimism melts away. — darthbarracuda
We can't think ourselves into a purely blissful state where nothing affects us. By definition, if we need to struggle and need some pain for meaning, it is inbuilt. — schopenhauer1
It doesn't mean we can't enjoy things. I never said that (though you might try to strawman me). — schopenhauer1
it is not about a methodology as much as a recognition that there structures of the world that are not good. — schopenhauer1
I am not sure how much asceticism will actually work (or work for most people) in really getting rid of desire or any contingent pains — schopenhauer1
Thus betraying your narcissism. — darthbarracuda
Have you considered what a purely blissful state actually is? I would argue that a blissful state is not necessarily one in which nothing affects us (although that wouldn't be horrible either). — darthbarracuda
Not good from a lowly human perspective. The universe is not benevolent nor malevolent, merely indifferent. How this manifests can be malignant, and it also be benign only to the perspective of a person. — darthbarracuda
It doesn't. It merely gives the person the facade that they are away from their pains, as well as a boost to their ego, oftentimes the same ego they claim they are trying to extinguish.
Asceticism doesn't work because it is not natural. You are constantly reminded why you are pursuing the ascetic lifestyle (suffering). — darthbarracuda
You asked why I don't like dealing with you, and these kind of remarks are one of several reasons. How is that not inflammatory? I'm sure your response to this will be in the same vein, thus betraying a bit about yourself. — schopenhauer1
Well, a blissful state is probably something along the lines of all preferences being satisfied in the way we want them satisfied. This includes meaning-through-pain, if one so chooses. This also, I guess, includes a certain amount of unexpected pain, that one could stop whenever they wanted and restart if it suited them. Of course, this all sounds like wishful thinking because we are talking utopias here. — schopenhauer1
Since we are the recipient of how it manifests, that is why it matters. The universe isn't for us, but we certainly must deal with what happens to us and thus why it matters to us — schopenhauer1
Those are good points. The context is hedonism and TGW's comments on it. So the good is pleasure and the bad is pain. Therefore living well must have something to do with obtaining more pleasure while minimizing pain. — Marchesk
Sleep is a pleasure and it is time to get on with it. — Bitter Crank
...with the 'high' pleasures, they can genuinely peter out over time, and not as a result of simple bodily exhaustion. It is possible, through too fine an appreciation of music, to cease to enjoy music that you once loved, because your palette becomes too discriminating for it. Many people take a sort od aesthetic pride in this kind of devaluation. — The Great Whatever
I don't think the point of ethics is to provide a self-help guide for specific ways you should live your life. — The Great Whatever
A correction here: the kind of hedonism I defend doesn't say that the maximization of pleasure or the minimization of pain are good, because this assumes that pain and pleasure can be quantified, and usually that they are are fungible over time or between persons, which they are not. — The Great Whatever
I don't think the point of ethics is to provide a self-help guide for specific ways you should live your life. The classical hedonists made very different life choices and had very different personalities, if the doxography can be believed. — The Great Whatever
To be a hedonist means to believe that pleasure and pain are the only good/bad (respectively). So it makes sense that a hedonist would want to maximize pleasure and minimize pain. — darthbarracuda
...with the 'high' pleasures, they can genuinely peter out over time, and not as a result of simple bodily exhaustion. It is possible, through too fine an appreciation of music, to cease to enjoy music that you once loved, because your palette becomes too discriminating for it. Many people take a sort od aesthetic pride in this kind of devaluation. — The Great Whatever
I agree. This has happened to me and I feel anything but pride in it. I find prose fiction in general terrifically hard to enjoy - I used to write it, enjoy reading it and savour it - and for a while it felt tragic to me that I'd lost a taste for its flavour.
One reason I came to philosophy late in life was to try out a new taste. It's helped me to feel that one can find new 'high' pleasures - my tastes in music are somewhat different too, for instance - and yet still grieve sometimes for the old.
I haven't found however that the 'low' pleasures remain either. An appetite can get jaded. But maybe that's just me :) — mcdoodle
If something is good, then why on earth would it not be the case that it should be maximized? — darthbarracuda
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