When does the Freedom of Info Act take effect? 25 years? — frank
Thinking for yourself and healthy skepticism is important. But notice the italics. Letting your imagination run wild and questioning everything always, under the guise of simply being a "contrarian" (a very self-serving view), is completely hopeless. But you're welcome to it. — Xtrix
Again -- when it comes to science, and I'm neither an expert nor have time to reach an even intermediate level of knowledge, I go with the consensus view. — Xtrix
You didn't answer my question. Do you think we know the full truth of 9/11, despite the commission's own co-chairs telling us that we don't? Or do you just not care? I'm curious to understand. — fishfry
Myself I'd like to know the truth. And for that you said I'm not worth talking to. I'd like to understand that too. That's like a physicist saying they want to know the truth about nature, and you go, "Oh, a nature truther! I don't want to talk to YOU anymore!"
As Plato said: “No one is more hated than he who speaks the truth.”
And you hate people who even ASK about the truth. How bad is that? — fishfry
a lot of blarney is wrapped up in the old, "I'm just asking questions here." — Tom Storm
Nice response - common sense defended. The National Enquirer magazine's slogan used to be, 'Enquiring minds want to know.' Dressing up yellow journalism as a virtue. Having known a lot of folks who enjoy a conspiracy theory (and I think this the right verb), a lot of blarney is wrapped up in the old, "I'm just asking questions here." — Tom Storm
↪Xtrix Nice response - common sense defended. The National Enquirer magazine's slogan used to be, 'Enquiring minds want to know.' Dressing up yellow journalism as a virtue. Having known a lot of folks who enjoy a conspiracy theory (and I think this the right verb), a lot of blarney is wrapped up in the old, "I'm just asking questions here." — Tom Storm
I have been thinking about starting a discussion on how, sometimes, it makes more sense to pay attention to the questions people ask than to the answers they give. — T Clark
No, you're transparently attempting to make a point which you believe supports your call to question things. — Xtrix
Nevertheless: what exactly would the "full truth" be? — Xtrix
It's a ridiculous phrase. Am I certain that the WTC was hit by airplanes that were hijacked by Islamist extremists plotted by Al Qaeda? Yes, I am. But that's not what's important here. — Xtrix
What's important, as I mentioned before, is the reason why people like you want to enter into "debate" about it in the first place and not, say, about the assassination attempt on Reagan. — Xtrix
There's a reason we learn from psychology: with big events (just look around during this pandemic), especially very emotional ones, people want to look for special explanations of why it happened. — Xtrix
They also want to appear like they have "special knowledge." So suddenly they become cheap skeptics -- even when otherwise they couldn't think themselves out of a paper bag -- and get drawn into the sophistry of conspiracy theorists and other quacks, who of course are just "questioning" and "thinking for themselves" (what could be wrong with that?). — Xtrix
You're clearly of this cloth. And no amount of explanation by me or anyone else can convince you of where you're going wrong. But you are. You go way too far towards one extreme, then want to justify it with the standard arguments about "free thought," while of course invoking Galileo and the Church, how "everyone believed" the earth was flat at one point (straight out of Men in Black, if I recall), sapere aude, etc. etc. etc. Been there, done that. — Xtrix
So yes, to answer your question: I'm fairly certain, given the evidence -- and common sense (uh oh -- that controversial term! Have a field day with that one!). But this doesn't have anything to do with physics, which was the OP. With the sciences, I'm even more certain. (It's like gambling, where I win time and time again because I know how to bet on winners -- i.e., the scientists.) — Xtrix
Again, if you want to waste your time chasing every claim that literally anyone can conjure up, have at it. — Xtrix
I've got one for you now: the WTC was brought down by space lasers. All the video footage of the planes was CGI. Behind it was a secret deal involving the Business Roundtable, George Soros, and Dick Cheney. — Xtrix
Have fun with that one. Could be true, after all. Where do you draw the line, exactly? Because wherever you do draw the line, it needs to be re-calibrated. But as Bob Dylan once said, "I can't teach you how to weed it out." — Xtrix
:lol: Exactly. Something Donald Trump could say, too. — Xtrix
* I'm fully vaccinated, as well. — Xtrix
I was the first one at my job to sign up. No hesitation whatsoever, despite all the BS surrounding it and some of the concerns of my co-workers. — Xtrix
Did I have to refute every one of their claims beforehand? No. Did I have to go through every internet theory and debunk them all? No. I had a friend who is a very bright anti-vaxxer try to convince me not to do it -- and she had a mountain of information about it, too. Information that I would have had to spend months unraveling. I took it anyway, and I've been absolutely fine -- no surprise whatsoever. — Xtrix
Why? Why was I so certain it would turn out that way, given all this "controversy"? It's a matter of common sense, critical thinking, probability, BS detector, etc. — Xtrix
But mainly it's just going with what the consensus of experts say. I do this same thing with all kinds of issues in life and, as I said before, I come out looking super smaht, when in reality it's just extending what we do all the time -- going to a doctor, a mechanic, a lawyer, etc. It's trusting in expertise, and not getting sucked up into the vortex of bullshit that always surrounds "big" issues (and which gets amplified with social media these days). It's picking your battles and weighing probabilities. — Xtrix
But there are actual conspiracies' people could look at that are useful: just open The Wall Street Journal or The Financial Times, you'll learn how money moves and shapes interest. Or try Foreign affairs to see how the military thinks the US should treat China. It's enough to send chills down your spine. Apparently these things aren't interesting... — Manuel
I don't follow your claim that there are subjects that we have no right to question. — fishfry
And so forth. Surely it's perfectly clear, beyond dispute, that the commission didn't do a thorough investigation. So why shouldn't one be done? — fishfry
How did three steel-framed buildings collapse, the first, last, and only such collapses of steel-framed buildings in history? — fishfry
Look I am not interested in debating 9/11 here. You brought up 9/11 as a subject that cant even legitimately be discussed. I just don't get this at all. — fishfry
In the case of Reagan there was no investigating board whose obvious purpose was to cover up and bury the truth rather than reveal it. — fishfry
Psychological theories aren't evidence. — fishfry
You're clearly of this cloth. And no amount of explanation by me or anyone else can convince you of where you're going wrong. But you are. You go way too far towards one extreme, then want to justify it with the standard arguments about "free thought," while of course invoking Galileo and the Church, how "everyone believed" the earth was flat at one point (straight out of Men in Black, if I recall), sapere aude, etc. etc. etc. Been there, done that.
— Xtrix
Ok. But notice how you have zero interest in the facts of the case — fishfry
you want to talk about the psychological proclivities of people "like me," — fishfry
The government's description of the collapse of the buildings violates the laws of physics. — fishfry
Especially the infamous building 7, which collapsed perfectly symmetrically at freefall speed into its own footprint from "office fires" without ever being hit by a plane. — fishfry
I see you've never actually take the trouble to study the case. — fishfry
But how can you say I have no right to question these things? I have every right — fishfry
I would say that every American has a civic and patriotic duty to study and question this case. — fishfry
I'm simply questioning your belief that I am somehow beyond the pale as a human being for even daring to question the government's account or to even remind you that the commissions OWN CO-CHAIRs questioned their own account. — fishfry
Why do they need to stay home, socially distance, and wear masks if every single one of them is vaxed? — fishfry
You and I have different personality types. — fishfry
I would say that if we draw a continuum between "natural born rebel" and "natural born conformer," I'm closer to the former and you to the latter. — fishfry
You may have heard of the famous Milgram experiment, in which normal people were induced to subject others to fatal doses of electrical shock when told to by authorities. It's a frightening experiment. — fishfry
When told to jump, you say "How high?" and I say, "Why should I?" — fishfry
I know that one loses the debate when they bring up the H-word, but you'd have made a fine Nazi. — fishfry
Sorry I just can't help needling people like you. — fishfry
I am interested in math cranks. That doesn't mean I agree with them. I find alternate takes on things to be interesting. I just don't see why you think that makes me a bad person. — fishfry
This is an important point. Very important. — Xtrix
You can mock Q all you want, but what about the EVIDENCE? Why don't you want to talk about the EVIDENCE instead of just ridiculing? — Xtrix
What happened? One conscientious scientist, Mordechai Vanunu, managed to blow the whistle and let the world know that Israel had nukes. Of course, he's now under arrest, can't leave the country, labeled as a traitor, etc. Yet, if in such a secretive country, with relatively few people in the know about such a delicate subject could not keep such a secret, how in the world would an inside job, involving hundreds of people, if not more, possibly commit 9/11 without anyone saying something substantial about it? — Manuel
That was a delightful romp, X. :cheer: — Tom Storm
It's about looking at the obvious. Keep a (very very very very) open mind about it, and you'll get there. :wink: — Manuel
In short, these "theories" are nonsense. — Manuel
it should come as no surprise that people with terrible judgment and delusions of grandeur are attracted to such claims— it further supports the self-serving picture they’ve created for themselves of being “contrarian.” — Xtrix
I've known smart, perceptive people who believe some of them. They're just wrong. — T Clark
To bring it back to “bad physics,” it should come as no surprise that people with terrible judgment and delusions of grandeur are attracted to such claims— it further supports the self-serving picture they’ve created for themselves of being “contrarian.” — Xtrix
How do we tell? I’m beginning to think it can’t be formally taught. You have it or you don’t. — Xtrix
Perpetrated by scientists who want to rule over other people.So bad physics is a result of contempt for science. — Banno
Which is not to say that one can't be skeptical of certain claims made by such people. but one should be careful. — Manuel
A portion of it is simply probability, as is "what is more likely to be true" an inside job or what happened? — Manuel
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