In the case of muscle memory I don't see how it can be carried into another life if the muscles are not part of that life. Besides, I might be reincarnated as a slug. — Fooloso4

Muscle memory is the result of the nervous system's ability to be set and reset. If you were being hunted by the CIA for several years, your sympathetic nervous system would be ramped up. Your muscles would demonstrate that. If you subsequently made peace with the US and retired to live the life of a fisherman in Indonesia, your nervous system would eventually settle down.

Was that your main argument though? Muscle memory?

Eh, I don't see that you have any good support for your assertion. You're just like those you criticize.

Nothing fancy, just recording on my camera and editing with the software that comes with Windows 10.

Was that your main argument though? Muscle memory? — frank

Main argument?

You asked:

I'm asking how you know these things, once generated, disappear with your body? — frank

Manual skills are bodily skills. They involve touch and specific bodily movements. How are they maintained if you no longer have a body?

...what it is that is separate from the body and functions and endures without it.
— Fooloso4

They call it the soul. Why is that answer insufficient? — frank

What is reincarnated? The Soul. What is the Soul? That which is separate from the body and functions and endures without it - ie, that which is reincarnated.

What is reincarnated is what is reincarnated.

But what is reincarnated?

Manual skills are bodily skills. They involve touch and specific bodily movements. How are they maintained if you no longer have a body? — Fooloso4

I don't think a person who believes in reincarnation would say that you retain specific bodily movements from one life to the next. I think they would say that just as you are the same person you were seven years ago (the rate of cellular regeneration), you are the same person in the next life, with a different body and of course, substantial memory loss.

But what is reincarnated? — Banno

I think they believe that what you basically are is a soul that enters into physical life repeatedly. So it's you.

I don't think a person who believes in reincarnation would say that you retain specific bodily movements from one life to the next. — frank

In that case, contrary to what you said, they do not retain the experiences and skills that involve bodily movement. The reincarnated Jimi Hendrix would not be born with his ability to play guitar and would not have "ever been experienced".

I think they would say that just as you are the same person you were seven years ago (the rate of cellular regeneration), you are the same person in the next life — frank

There is a fundamental difference. Cellular regeneration does not transfer from one body to the next. That would certainly make giving birth difficult.

So it's you. — frank

So the soul is one's personal identity?

Then all the problems of personal identity are summoned by reincarnation. Persistence, evidence, population, ontology and import, for starters.

I have used persistence in this thread, but the others provide equally difficult conceptual issues for reincarnation.

So, looking at persistence, what is it that makes you the same person as the one pictured in the school photo from when your were five? The simplest answer is that you have the same body, which has grown.

What is it that makes you the reincarnation of Genghis Khan? Certainly not that you have the same body.

Nor will memory do. You have the same memories as the child, but from what has been said you do not have to have the same memories as the Khan in order to be his reincarnation.

The problem for reincarnation is that of tracking persistence across distinct lives.

Notice that this is not a problem for NDEs or out of body experiences.

And notice that we still have evidence, population, ontology and import to consider. This could be a long thread.

The reincarnated Jimi Hendrix would not be born with his ability to play guitar and would not have "ever been experienced". — Fooloso4

Of course not. The new Jimi would probably be drawn to guitar music or something like that.

There is a fundamental difference. Cellular regeneration does not transfer from one body to the next. That would certainly make giving birth difficu — Fooloso4

The point was that you endure as your body passes away.

The point was that you endure as your body passes away. — frank

What is "You"?

Then all the problems of personal identity are summoned by reincarnation. Persistence, evidence, population, ontology and import, for starters. — Banno

Sure. What I'm really looking for from Fooloso4 is his or her basis for ruling out reincarnation.


That it's problematic isn't a reason to rule it out. I doubt there's ever been a worldview that wasn't laden with problems. The 21st Century scientific outlook certainly is.

The problem for reincarnation is that of tracking persistence across distinct lives. — Banno

As I mentioned to Fooloso4, large doses of idealism can fix that.

What is "You"? — Banno

I'm sure you can use the word correctly in a sentence. What more is there?

large doses of idealism can fix that — frank

Well, go on then - present us with large doeses of idealism. Follow one mistake with another. :wink:

What more is there? — frank

That, my friend, is exactly the question. Are you the reincarnation of the Khan?

That, my friend, is exactly the question. Are you the reincarnation of the Khan? — Banno

I'm what the Khan became.

How do you know?

How do you know? — Banno

Because the priest told me so.

I don't find that at all satisfactory, and would be disappointed if you did. But perhaps you can see the problem.

k
I don't find that at all satisfactory, and would be disappointed if you did. But perhaps you can see the problem. — Banno

As I said, I'm looking for a reason to rule it out. You haven't given me one.

If your point is that we should rule it out because we can't confirm it, surely you see the problem with that.

As I said, I'm looking for a reason to rule it out. You haven't given me one. — frank

Oh, indeed, my time here has been an utter failure. I've not been able to prove reincarnation does not exist; nor have I been able to elicit a clear notion of what reincarnation is from those who advocate it.

Did you know that if you cook carrots, onions, and celery together it tastes amazing?

Did you know that if you cook carrots, onions, and celery together it tastes amazing? — frank

Curious that you might mention this, since it lead in to my answer to

Why don't you take the challenge of coming up with an answer? — frank

When you die, your memories, experiences, desires, intentions - all that stuff - dissolves into nothing. However your energy and substance persist. The stuff of you body might become over time the bodies of microbes, of the invisible hoards; then progressively it might enter into the bodies of the boneless or those with shells. The energy that was you becomes the energy of mud and muck, but then by chance might progress to that of a rodent or other vertebrate. If you are worthy, what was once you may become part of a beggar or a vagabond, or that of a fair maid or emperor.

Drop the persistence of the self, and reincarnation becomes a fact.

Hence, the only moral thing to do with your corpse is to dig it into the compost and use it to grow carrots, onions, and celery.

Of course not. The new Jimi would probably be drawn to guitar music or something like that. — frank

Being the master musician and innovator he was is essential to the identity of Jimi Hendrix. Someone with a different identity would not be him.

What I'm really looking for from Fooloso4 is his or her basis for ruling out reincarnation. — frank

I have not ruled it out, I just have not ruled it in. I find no compelling argument to do so and cannot make sense of what a disembodied soul even is.

Hence, the only moral thing to do with your corpse is to dig it into the compost and use it to grow carrots, onions, and celery. — Banno

I like that.

I have not ruled it out, I just have not ruled it in. I find no compelling argument to do so and cannot make sense of what a disembodied soul even is. — Fooloso4

People have understood it for thousands of years. I guess you're cut off from the vast majority of people in your own culture and broader language group.

People have understood it for thousands of years. I guess you're cut off from the vast majority of people in your own culture and broader language group. — frank

See my earlier comments about Plato's Phaedo. While ostensibly he is laying out an argument to support an immortal soul, he is at the same time showing that there is no coherent concept of an immortal soul.

Added: I also cited two seminal sources from my own culture: Aristotle and the Hebrew Bible. Neither posits an immortal soul that exists apart from a particular body.

See my earlier comments about Plato's Phaedo. While ostensibly he is laying out an argument to support an immortal soul, he is at the same time showing that there is no coherent concept of an immortal soul. — Fooloso4

I don't think so.

Added: I also cited two seminal sources from my own culture: Aristotle and the Hebrew Bible. Neither posits an immortal soul that exists apart from a particular body. — Fooloso4

Christianity.

Does Christianity provide a coherent account of the soul or simply claim it? Which version of Christianity are you talking about? The one that claim bodily resurrection of just the soul or Paul's spiritual body, sōma pneumatikos?

Your edibles / vapes must be high quality, @Banno, to be so patient with so many repeated non-answers and the tendentious woo. Apparently, I'm not getting the right stuff. I can't see any difference in believing literally in "reincarnation" and believing literally in "astrology". Maybe it's the well-aged dram. :yum:

I do on occasion imbibe a certain herbal tea...

Does Christianity provide a coherent account of the soul or simply claim it? Which version of Christianity are you talking about? The one that claim bodily resurrection of just the soul or Paul's spiritual body, sōma pneumatikos? — Fooloso4

C'mon. It's been pretty simple for thousands of years.