Pro-life people seems not so pro life when we are including their threats and actions against abortion doctors to the whole picture. — Antinatalist

Social death penalty is not murder

So under some situations it's OK to kill your children by "letting some die" (which is simply a euphemism for murder). Got it. And there is no punishment for a woman who murders her child via abortion. Got it. — EricH

If I leave someone behind on a dangerous journey because i have to, that is not the same as shooting him in the head. And as for women, I don't think society should put the death penalty on them for those situations. You don't seem to like nuances except when it comes to the age for abortions

IVF - a process which inevitably leads to killing unused embryos which (again according to him) are human beings. — EricH

We shouldn't do it if it leads to deaths. It's been like talking to a wall. I've answered your questions like 8 times already

I wasn't talking to you, but I'll try one more time.

As for frozen embryos, you just don't make ones you plan to kill and if you have too many you let some die. — Gregory

IVF leads to death. This is a well proven fact. it leads to millions of deaths.

We shouldn't do it if it leads to deaths. I — Gregory

Make up your mind. IVF leads to deaths. You say we shouldn't do it if it leads to deaths. The only logical conclusion is that IVF should be made illegal.

And if women are not punished for having abortions, then you are giving them tacit approval - there is no consequence for the woman. A woman can have as many abortions as she wants.

I am not trying to change your mind about Zygote Person hood - I have no illusions on that. I'm simply trying to get you to acknowledge your inconsistencies. Now it is not the end of the world to be consistent. Thoreau's famous quote comes to mind: "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines." But it is intellectually dishonest to deny the inconsistency.

IVF leads to death. This is a well proven fact. it leads to millions of deaths. — EricH

Then it's wrong. You don't know how this stuff works because you are pro-choice. You don't understand how this matters work at all

And if women are not punished for having abortions, then you are giving them tacit approval - there is no consequence for the woman. A woman can have as many abortions as she wants. — EricH

Women and men are not the same. If a man is talking and the woman suddenly kisses him, that is not sexual assault. The other way around it is sexual assault. They are different creatures

IVF leads to death. This is a well proven fact. it leads to millions of deaths. — EricH
Then it's wrong. — Gregory

Sorry, I'm not following your last response. Are you:

A) Changing your mind and now agreeing IVF should be outlawed because it leads to death?
OR
B) Saying that it's wrong but it should still be permitted?

It's not hard to understand. If they think their actions will lead to a situation where they reasonably need to let embryos die then that should be illegal. IVF is not immoral in itself. I am not concerned with peoples' sex lives or their reproductive decisions. The issue is solely about the right to life for me

If they think their actions will lead to a situation where they reasonably need to let embryos die then that should be illegal. — Gregory

It's not about what "they think". If "they" are evil Nazis who do not believe in Zygote Personhood and think that their actions will merely lead to destroying a clump of cells - does that make it OK in your book? Of course not. IVF almost inevitably leads to the destroying embryos. I gave you the links.

So I put it to you again. Per your belief system, IVF should be made illegal - and anyone who knowingly engages in the procedure should be put to death.

Meanwhile:

Women and men are not the same. If a man is talking and the woman suddenly kisses him, that is not sexual assault. The other way around it is sexual assault. They are different creatures — Gregory

This is too funny. How about if a man kisses another man or a woman kisses another woman? is that sexual assault? If you seriously believe that, I suggest you open up a new topic and see the responses you get.

But beyond that, WTF does this have to do with abortion? Are you somehow implying that woman are weak creatures and should not be held responsible for their actions?

Pro-life people seems not so pro life when we are including their threats and actions against abortion doctors to the whole picture.
— Antinatalist

Social death penalty is not murder — Gregory

I disagree.

IVF doesn't inherently have to lead to death and disregard to life.

Women and men are different; lot of people want to say they are exactly the same apart from body, but that's just ridiculous

I don't really know how homosexuals and lesbians are. I don't really understand them well. But women certainly aren't weak, they are just different from men and with regard to abortion should perhaps be judged differently. Punishment is supposed to try to save the soul of the criminal, even with the death penalty. I think it's far wiser to let women deal with their consciences on their own after an abortion

I don't really know how homosexuals and lesbians are. I don't really understand them well. — Gregory

Seriously? They are exactly the same as everyone else; they are just primates with pretty standard preferences attempting to lead happy lives; they aren't aliens.

Women and men are different; lot of people want to say they are exactly the same apart from body, but that's just ridiculous — Gregory

If there are mental differences, and I will admit there might be some slight ones, they aren't meaningful enough to treat men and women any differently. In your kissing example it very much would be sexual assault for the woman to kiss a man without permission.

Punishment is supposed to try to save the soul of the criminal — Gregory

That is exactly not what punishment is about. Rehabilitation is more about that (or something like that; I don't - and many others don't - believe in souls).



Sorry for not reading all of the pages of comments. That gets a little cumbersome. Didn't mean to take you out of context.

I think it's far wiser to let women deal with their consciences on their own after an abortion — Gregory

This is a philosophy forum. If you wish to present a position it is not sufficient to say "it is far wiser" - you need to provide some justification.

If a woman were to take her born child and hold it down on a table struggling while letting someone else slice open it's stomach and let it bleed to death, then surely that woman (and the other person involved) is committing murder and should suffer the severest penalty possible

But yet in your opinion there are no legal consequences for a woman to kill her unborn child. Why? Why is it far wiser?

That matter is about social policy, not logical proof

Punishment hurts but it can save the criminal. As for the kissing thing, I don't see how a real man can claim he was sexually assaulted by a girl's kiss. You want to create a culture where it is hard to be a man

I don't see how a real man can claim he was sexually assaulted by a girl's kiss. — Gregory

That is pretty fucked up, dude. A real man?

Well, if a woman grabs you by the crotch and you don't like it - I guess you aren't a real man.

I wouldn't mind but that's beside the point. We are becoming a valueless society where women want themselves to be dominant and men to be submissive even though women don't generally like submissiveness in men and more and more women are becoming depressed in the West because of their "liberation"

Oh god, oh Jesus, oh sweet baby Jesus, I'm just being trolled, thank god.

I'm serious. Why do you care what I think anyway? If it bothers you maybe there is something you need to discover about yourself. I'm wasn't referring to necessarily being macho, but a lot of males act like females these days. I'm not going to respect a man acting like a girl, even if they are gay. Acting like a girl is just crossing the line. And likewise if a woman is going to refuse to turn on her femininity, how am I supposed to respect that

Social policy has to be reasonably consistent.

So according to you there are no legal consequences for a woman to murder her unborn child by any means - morning after pill, abortifacient, actual abortion, etc. But she should get the the most severe punishment legally allowed for murdering her born child. Yet according to you the unborn child is every bit a person as the born child.

How you hold these two contradictory positions in your mind is something I do not understand.

Our conversation is going around in circles. I'll repeat myself one more time. You have a very firm belief on this topic and I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm simply trying to help you understand the implications of your beliefs.

You are one very confused person. My only hope is that in the fullness of time you will figure this out.

I give you the last word.