A lot of those into science believe matter is dead unless organic. But nothing is dead and I'm not talking about pansychism here. I'm taking about a world that has beauty and which responds to our ideas. Scientist often escape into a Platonic world and more than in other fields have breakdowns, as Gödel and Cantor unfortunately had. I started this thread with a little talk about numbers and have now moved on to my larger program about sickness of mind in the West

Darn, I was hoping to hear about a work in mathematics that is from a dead universe perspective and moves in infinite circles.

And now I'm also hoping to hear of a study that shows that scientists have an especially high incidence of mental illness.

Then I was wondering what you had in mind when you mentioned Godel's theorems, but the only thing so far you've mentioned is his and Cantor's breakdowns. If you are suggesting that Godel and Cantor suffered mental illness due to their work in mathematics, then that would require evidence. Also, I hope you are not suggesting that Godel's and Cantor's personal problems discredit the mathematics.

Mathematics is usually practiced as a Platonic type of religious practice — Gregory

I had a colleague, a fellow math prof, who was a devout Catholic. I once asked him what he thought it was that we do as mathematicians. He said, "We are like priests who practice their faith, it's what we do."

Mathematicians do sometimes say cheeky things like that. But mathematics doesn't have religious practices, rites, rituals, creeds, obligations of obedience, eschatology, myths, scripture, moral strictures, determination of truth by fiat and divine revelation, etc.

Mathematics is the opposite of religion.

Some people like to be cheeky like that — TonesInDeepFreeze

Au contraire, he was right!

Gödel already proved that mathematics is either wrong or that there are infinite things that can't be proven. The problem is that they can never find where the line is between what is provable and what is not, so mathematicians will forever be searching for the finite sequence of proofs that are certainly knowable. It's enticing to look for total certainty in your field of study but it can cause problems

We can list the essential attributes of religion, and see which of those are attributes of mathematics. Attenuated, glib, "kinda sorta" analogies like "axioms are a fiats" or "infinity is mystic" don't count.

You seem overly rationalistic

Gödel already proved that mathematics is either wrong or that there are infinite things that can't be proven. — Gregory

That is one of the worst encapsulations of Godel I've ever read.

The problem is that they can never find where the line is between what is provable and what is not — Gregory

Another botched attempt.

We can list the essential attributes of religion, and see which of those are attributes of mathematics — TonesInDeepFreeze

No no no. It's what you feel, not what you know. You are thinking like a logician. :gasp:

No it's correct. I stated it boldly to bring out its true nature

Just to be clear, that ad hominem doesn't refute anything I've said. Second, I have all kinds of facets, not just reason, but in discussing mathematics, I prefer to be lucid.

You responded to the wrong person and wrote like a Logicist

It's what you feel, not what you know. — jgill

If I understand you correctly, sure, one can feel that one is being religious. I am not disputing that he is accurately describing the way he feels or even views what he does.

so mathematicians will forever be searching for the finite sequence of proofs that are certainly knowable. It's enticing to look for total certainty in your field of study but it can cause problems — Gregory

You are expecting too much of us. We are mere mortals, and few of us commit ourselves to this challenging task.

I feel like you ask for proof for the obvious

You responded to the wrong person — Gregory

No, I didn't.

wrote like a Logicist — Gregory

That's idiotic. Logicism is the view that mathematics can be derived from logical axioms alone. I've never even flirted with logicism.

What ad hominem?

it's correct — Gregory

Where did Godel say it?

I feel like you ask for proof for the obvious — Gregory

Ah, argument by "it's obvious".

What ad hominem? — Gregory

Your claim that I seem overly rationalistic, obviously.

In his 1931 paper he said he set out to prove that mathematics was inconsistent (aka wrong) or incomplete. Where can the line be drawn with which to distinguish the provable from the unprovable? They still have to work out the foundations of mathematics. It sounds like you make logic or math a religion

I said "seem" which means "appears to others' perception"

1931 paper he said he set out to prove that mathematics was inconsistent (aka wrong) or incomplete — Gregory

And that doesn't deserve the mangled version you posted earlier.

Where can the line be drawn with which to distinguish the provable from the unprovable? — Gregory

It's not clear what "line to be drawn" means there. And every formula is provable in some system or another.

I said "seem" which means "appears to others' perception" — Gregory

Oh please, a minor pedantic shift in the way one casts an ad hominem doesn't erase it's affect as an hominem.

It sounds like you make logic or math a religion — Gregory

Of course I don't. I listed a good number of the major features of religion. I don't relate to mathematics with any of those features.

I merely repeated my previous post on Gödel. I just reread both of them. Anyhow are you saying they can find a limited number of theorems that they know for sure is provable from the ground up?

I merely repeated my previous post on Gödel. — Gregory

"

Gödel already proved that mathematics is either wrong or that there are infinite things that can't be proven. — Gregory

and

mathematics was inconsistent (aka wrong) or incomplete — Gregory

are critically different.

If you find the word "rationalistic" insulting, it be interested to know your world view.

f I understand you correctly, sure, one can feel that one is being religious. I am not disputing that he is accurately describing the way he feels or even views what he does. — TonesInDeepFreeze

I think you are being too literal. I am working on a conjecture right now, as I have on others on and off for fifty years, with a sort of pleasing fervor that could be described more as a religious mood than a purely problem-solving commitment. Its true than mathematicians can be very competitive, even mean spirited at times, and I have been in an unpleasant situation that reeked of it, but exploring math - rather than learning it - is a delight and has its rewards.