I'm here to discuss the murder of flesh and blood children by an apartheid state. — StreetlightX

Great, and I'm here to discuss the flesh and blood murder of Jews who have not faced this type of hate since Nazi Germany.

Glad we could partake in this productive conversation.

Great, and I'm here to discuss the flesh and blood murder of Jews who have not faced this type of hate since Nazi Germany. — BitconnectCarlos

Could have fooled me. Perhaps you might want to ask me about Japan again or something to really drill it home.

A consequence of demanding support for Israel from American Jews - that loyalty to Israel is a necessary condition for Jewishness - by politicians, Evangelicals, right-wing and yes, center/liberal Jews, that generally goes unquestioned by mainstream media, has lead to the end result of Jewish self-hatred from Jews who support the right of Palestinians.

People who defend Israeli actions now are not too different from those that defended Apartheid South Africa when it terrorized the population by claiming that they are "defending themselves".

Of course they are. What are they going to say? We're killing children?

And to those that think that the Arabs have not sought peace, just look at the "Palestine Papers" from just a few years ago. The PLO was willing to give up all of East Jerusalem just to be left alone. But this goes way back. It's been Israel, not the Arab states, that have repeatedly rejected peace in favor of power.

But Israeli loyalists will say that they are in an "existential threat" situation. They say this as they are actively destroying a nation. And see no irony in this.

But don't forget Israel created Hamas in order to divide the PLO, it just so happened that Hamas gained power in Gaza and manage to fight back to a limited extent...

has lead to the end result of Jewish self-hatred from Jews who support the right of Palestinians. — Maw

I do know a few Jews who are openly pro-Palestinian and while these Jews will likely be ostracized from religious communities if they are vocal in their beliefs, I haven't seen any pro-Palestinian Jews hate their own Jewishness as a result of their position, but I guess it exists on some level.

If you're a Jew who wants to immediately dismantle the state of Israel then you are advocating for a very serious security issue for millions of Jews so you deserve to be ostracized. If you're advocating for a two state solution then you're just a mainstream Jew and religious communities will have no problem with you.

Who here denies that if s/he were a member of a Palestinian community & family subjugated under decades of Israelis Occupation you would choose war? — 180 Proof

Me. I would choose peace. And given the ability, would work towards it. Which means I have to cease my commitment to and accordant sticking a fork into my interlocuter at every opportunity. Hamas, et al, are not interested in peace. And it's interesting, yes, that terrorists found hiding under skirts, which they do, are always the Hamas, and never the Israeli.

If people want peace in the middle east, they're going to have to stop wanting war - and they're going to have to stop their own who want war. In part that means that Palestinian women are going to have to clean out under their own skirts, that being in all cases better than having others have to do it with explosives.

Me. I would choose peace. — tim wood

:roll: Palestinians under Isreali Occupation don't have that option. War or subjugation. That's it. Until Israel ends their confiscatory Occupation, etc.

They could immigrate.
Jordan will take them.

That's an incredible statement.

That's like saying why do Jews need Israel if they already have New York.

That's an incredible statement. — Manuel

180s statement that they have no choice is wrong. You don't have to flash bullshit to support the Palestinians.

One imagines some cunt saying that if the Jews in Germany just left it would have solved the problem, but of course, that person would be a cunt.

Palestinians under Isreali Occupation don't have that option. War or subjugation. That's it. Unless Israel ends the Occupation, etc. — 180 Proof

They don't have the option of self-control? You may be right. How often in the past 70-odd years have "the neighbors" published themselves saying essentially, "We cannot control ourselves"?

Which lack of control - the irony - has led the Israelis of necessity to master exactly that. And what do you do with people who disavow self-control in favor of annihilating you. If I mention Santayana here, instantly you know that to which I refer.

I'm not sure having Egypt as an ally was ever particularly helpful to the Palestinian cause. They did, at one point, consider granting Palestinians on their soil citizenship and letting them out of squalid camps, but only when Israel was offering them money and land for taking them on. Aside from that, Egypt mostly helped to keep unhelpful raids and reprisals going, following its own political goals, and then their disastrous military efforts helped set the stage for the occupation.

Not to mention that the Arab allies expulsion of their Jewish populations and expropriation of their property wasn't particularly helpful PR for the Palestinian cause during the Cold War, and dramatically increased Israel's need for land. The PR effects of the expulsions have faded over time as people have moved on, but the expulsions continue to haunt the Palestinian cause as the descendants of the Jews expelled from the Middle East tend to vote for more hardline political leaders.

As to your question, I wouldn't choose war. There is no point in waging wars you can't hope to win, and shrewd leaders can offer more through negotiation than conflict. Violence might be necissary, but that doesn't make all violence useful. The whole "any day now we're going to have a miracle victory and genocide our oppressors," statements were not exactly helpful for winning wider support, hence the eventual abandonment of those terms. Certainly plenty of groups could make similar appeals to their right to wage war against their oppressors throughout history, Jews in the Russian Empire for example, but that doesn't mean that waging that war is something every oppressed group is going to agree with, because all it is likely to do is make the situation worse.

It's also hardly the blanket sentiment of the Israeli Arabs or Palestinians I know. If your situation is dire enough, pragmatism can overwhelm moral outrage. In a similar vein, I've had an Afghan national express to me that his country would have been better off if the UK had colonized it, and most of the Egyptians I worked with openly supported Sisi after the coup, despite the admission that they were basically opting to go back under the same boot they were under with Mubarak, the sentiment being, "things can always get worse." To my mind, this is the logic that has driven the drop off in the intensity of the conflict over the past decades.

Rocket attacks in this context are less about costly signaling to Israel, since the effects are meager, as they are about building internal support for those carrying them out.

They're under a blockade in Gaza in which the Israeli authorities count the calories each citizen eats. That's monstrous no matter what:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/15/1-million-face-hunger-in-gaza-after-us-cut-to-palestine-aid

They are continuing to build in territory which does not belong to them. They're stealing another people's home and you except these people to say "thank you"?

180 is correct. They're not in a position to choose peace while occupied. They only have resistance or they acquiesce.

Yeah why don't they just control themselves while Israel steals their land, demolishes their homes, deny them rights, and gradually box them into an infrastructure hellzone of Israel's making? Why won't they just die in peace?

I haven't seen any pro-Palestinian Jews hate their own Jewishness as a result of their position, but I guess it exists on some level. — BitconnectCarlos

I'm a pro-Palestine American Jew, and having been conditioned, if not demanded, to support Israel for 30 years, it's hard not to feel a tinge of self-disgust watching Jews dancing and cheering at the Western Wall, waving the Magen David.

Yeah why don't they just control themselves why Israel steals their land, demolishes their homes, deny them rights, and gradually box them into a infrastructure hellzone? Why won't they just die in peace? — StreetlightX

Inappropriate comment deleted, but it still felt good

That felt good!

Palestinians under Isreali Occupation don't have that option. War or subjugation. — 180 Proof

Does that justify killing civilians?

They're under a blockade in Gaza in which the Israeli authorities count the calories each citizen eats. That's monstrous no matter what:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/15/1-million-face-hunger-in-gaza-after-us-cut-to-palestine-aid

They are continuing to build in territory which does not belong to them. They're stealing another people's home and you except these people to say "thank you"? — Manuel

Can nobody stay rational for two seconds in a row on this forum?

What's wrong? Justifying apartheid got too much for you?

Yeah why can't people stay rational instead of *check notes* listing facts?

Does that justify killing civilians? — Michael

No.

But under occupation they can acquiesce or resist. Resistance need not imply violence at all.

Does that justify killing civilians? — Michael

Crazy how people just reframe the core issue, an occupying apartheid state, to this.

It's a good PR tactic.

More seriously, Do you think concessions by the Israelis would solve their problems amidst populations explicitly committed to their annihilation?

Do you think concessions by the Israelis would solve their problems amidst populations explicitly committed to their annihilation? — tim wood

Concessions on apartheid are not concessions. And the state who is demonstrably - and so far successfully - committed to the annihilation of a population is Israel.

Does that justify killing civilians? — Michael

Most Israelis seem to think so.

Cognitive dissonance is a contagious bitch on this thread today. :mask:

I'm not sure having Egypt as an ally was ever particularly helpful to the Palestinian cause. — Count Timothy von Icarus

You misread me. I was referring to Israel's alliances with Egypt & Saudi Arabia in recent years.

Wtf are you talking about? :shade:

Palestinians can go to Jordan. The notion that they have no choice but to fight is just wrong. They do in fact choose to fight.

Spouting bullshit is not helpful.

And Jews can go to New York.

This is nuts.

Wtf are you talking about? :shade: — 180 Proof

Santayana? On history? Do you suppose the Israelis don't know theirs?