As a matter of expression in Greek, the use of "δια" to nous and logos are not far away from the nouns and verbs by themselves. — Valentinus
Once again, according to the dialogue knowledge of the good can only be attained in death if at all. — Fooloso4
I think the multitude, if they heard what you just said about the philosophers, would say you were quite right, and our people at home would agree entirely with you that philosophers desire death, and they would add that they know very well that the philosophers deserve it.”
“And they would be speaking the truth, Simmias, except in the matter of knowing very well. For they do not know in what way the real philosophers desire death, nor in what way they deserve death, nor what kind of a death it is. — Phaedo 64b
Persons of such a constitution [those who favor the body] will be dragged back into corporeal life, according to Socrates...they [those who favor the body] will be unable to enjoy the singular existence of the soul in death because of their constant craving for the body. These souls are finally imprisoned in another body — Wikipedia
He [Plato] believed all that and at the same time was one of the most poetic and mythically inclined philosophers of all time. Quite a contradiction. — Cuthbert
I always wonder to what extent I can put down the lens of my own worldview and see through the eyes of someone like Plato. — frank
Instead of saying that sinful flesh stands in my way, I say my worldview distorts the truth. — frank
Does pure thought reveal to us that there is an unexplored landscape right in front of us? What do you say? — frank
That is a quote I can relate to.But a problem that must be faced in the Phaedo is fear of death. One has it within their power to live in such a way as to avoid fear of punishment for wrongdoing in death. What about the fear of nothingness? Here the practice may involve meditation along the lines of Epictetus:
Why should I fear death? If I am, then death is not. If Death is, then I am not. — Fooloso4
:smile: Am I speaking to a ghost ?The only good philosopher is a dead philosopher. — Fooloso4
The question of the soul is the very thing that will be the focus of the discussion. Death may simply be, as Socrates said in the Apology, annihilation. The idea of the soul itself by itself will be questioned. — Fooloso4
This is at odds with the Republic and the story of knowledge of the Forms. But of course those philosophers who had knowledge of "the Forms themselves by themselves" only existed in a city made in speech. A city that is the soul writ large. An image of the soul found in an image of the city. A fine example of Plato’s poesis. — Fooloso4
And if these things are not true then rather than great hope there is a danger of a loss of hope. Knowledge of the just, the beautiful, and the good hang on the fate of the soul. — Fooloso4
I think it is a good practice when you come across something questionable to note it, postpone judgment, keep in mind the circumstances, and see how things develop. With the dialogues it is always important to look not only at what is said but at what is done. — Fooloso4
The Forms differ from the things of experience but they are not abstract concepts or objects of the mind. They are said to be "things themselves by themselves". This formulation is used with regard to the soul. What this means will be discussed. — Fooloso4
Correct.In that case the soul would not endure separate from the body. — Fooloso4
But Beauty is not a concept. It's existence is independent of the mind. Things are beautiful to the extent they are images of Beauty itself — Fooloso4
In the Symposium Socrates says that the love of wisdom is eros, desire. Philosophy then cannot be freedom from desire if it is motivated by desire. — Fooloso4
I think the key word is 'nous' - a faculty rather more specific than is described by the general term 'thought'. — Wayfarer
I think "life as a preparation for death" is indeed the key to understanding Socrates and Plato. However, we find parallels in Egyptian culture. — Apollodorus
Right, but that is very different from what Apollodorus is claiming. — Fooloso4
Bearing in mind the later arguments about the fate of the soul and of philosophers and ‘good men’, — Wayfarer
And if these things are not true then rather than great hope there is a danger of a loss of hope. Knowledge of the just, the beautiful, and the good hang on the fate of the soul. — Fooloso4
So, Plato in giving us an understanding of who Socrates was, gives several versions of what he actually thinks ? Talk about getting to the 'truth'... — Amity
Ideas of the soul - of afterlife - of life and death - all 'images' or 'imagination' or mere speculation as in a story...? — Amity
Does he actually believe what he is saying, or is it simply a matter of consolation... — Amity
If Socrates wants to inspire and for philosophy to continue, then he must offer hope in the very act of practising philosophy. — Amity
Plato is best interpreted in the Platonic tradition of Plotinus and others. — Apollodorus
If you choose a different standpoint then it might help to let us know what it is. — Apollodorus
Every part must be put together like a living creature, with a body of its own; it must be neither without head nor without legs; and it must have a middle and extremities that are fitting both to one another and to the whole work. (264c)
Platonism is an impediment to understanding Plato. You end up attributing things to Plato that are nowhere to be found in the dialogues. — Fooloso4
Not necessarily. What kind of things might that be? Wouldn't an anti-Platonic approach also lead to misattributions or and perhaps even more so? — Apollodorus
Philosophical systems do evolve over time. — Apollodorus
Platonism is generally consistent with Plato's writings, that's why it's called Platonism — Apollodorus
always wonder to what extent I can put down the lens of my own worldview and see through the eyes of someone like Plato. — frank
Indeed, the way we view the world is coloured by our knowledge, experience and beliefs. — Amity
My intention in this thread was to concentrate only on the particular sections as we proceed through the Phaedo. Also, of course, to listen to other points of view; some might call this 'mere opinion'. Interesting to read other interpretations...
Dialogue is as important here as it was to Plato and Socrates. — Amity
Images from Phaedo have gone deep into my thoughts since I first read it. — frank
We could. How would you do that relative to the Phaedo?We can try to put ourselves there. — frank
it may be that I need to cut out — frank
So I'm like, when are you guys going to relate Wittgenstein to what he's saying about the transcendent vantage point?
Maybe later. — frank
I don't know what you mean by 'pure thought'. How do you understand it as it pertains to this section of the text ? — Amity
Images from Phaedo have gone deep into my thoughts since I first read it. — frank
I agree. That was behind my questions re @frank 's deep ( ? ingrained ) images and any changing worldview.That, it seems to me, would be a good reason to read it again — Fooloso4
It is the same for me, with any book or film there is always something I missed first time round.I find that every time I read the dialogues I find something new and different. — Fooloso4
This is simply wrong. It is called Platonism because it was influenced by Plato. It is not consistent with his writings. Nowhere in Plato do we find your assertion about the individual mind being illumined by the cosmic or divine Mind and the rest. — Fooloso4
I find that every time I read the dialogues I find something new and different. — Fooloso4
Plato and his disciples didn’t call themselves “Platonists” or their system “Platonism” so the designation is irrelevant. — Apollodorus
What matters is that this was a living tradition that was transmitted orally from master to disciple for centuries after Plato. — Apollodorus
Its representatives didn’t think they were just “influenced” by Plato, they believed and had reasons to believe that they followed Plato in all his main teachings. — Apollodorus
It is clear from Plato’s writings ... — Apollodorus
There is no treatise (suggramma) by me on these subjects, nor will there ever be. (341c)
I find that every time I read the dialogues I find something new and different.
— Fooloso4
That makes the whole discussion kind of pointless, doesn't it? What happens if following the closure of the discussion you decide to find "new and different things" in the texts? — Apollodorus
In the Seventh Letter Plato says:
There is no treatise (suggramma) by me on these subjects, nor will there ever be. (341c) — Fooloso4
In the Seventh Letter Plato says:
There is no treatise (suggramma) by me on these subjects, nor will there ever be. (341c)
— Fooloso4
That's precisely why I pointed out that in the Greek philosophical tradition, teachings were transmitted orally. — Apollodorus
It is clear from Plato’s writings ... — Apollodorus
Even if there is no "treatise" by Plato, certain core teachings must be acknowledged ... — Apollodorus
... if you do want to have a discussion of Plato ... — Apollodorus
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