How about religious ones then? — BitconnectCarlos

Of course not. Religion ought to play no role in government. Like - I'm sorry I have to provide you a minimum of civic education? And yes, the Arab states are almost universally fucking awful. Another 'Yes'.

How about the Arabs countries? You think they love Jews over there? I haven't forgotten about your earlier post btw, I didn't mean to ignore it but I was just so mobbed with responses yesterday. — BitconnectCarlos

They don't. The Israeli's also haven't helped themselves in this regard in regards to the many wars it has fought, which could have been avoided, minus the 48' war and (perhaps) the 73' war.

I understand that it's not easy to create a state in such a place. It's the only place in the world in which there is some claim to a land for the Jews, even if the source of the claim doesn't merit any real life authority.

Nevertheless, by doing what your state is doing, they won't be loving Jews any time soon...

How about the Arabs countries? You think they love Jews over there? — BitconnectCarlos

Hitler: What about the soviets? You think they run a fair and equal country?
Stalin: What about the nazis? You think they run a fair and equal country?

And so both are justified apparently.....

Example: Calls to prayer in Muslim countries that are broadcast everywhere — BitconnectCarlos

Calls to prayer = Shooting them with missiles.
Ok.

Also, there are no mosques around areas what are mostly not Muslim. So if you hate the prayer calls that much, move.

China is quite racist actually and Japan as well for that matter. — Manuel

As a foreigner in Japan: I don't think they're comparable anymore. Most you'll get in Japan is a glare by a 90 year old who can barely stand who's gonna croak any minute. Most Japanese people actually really like foreigners in my experience.

:rofl:

Ah, that's good to know. I assume this change is more or less recent? I've heard of many cases where foreigners can't even get a home to live in if they don't speak Japanese.

But, good for them. It's a really fascinating country with a messed up recent history, but I'm glad they're doing better.

Yeah, that's just a difference between us then. But you see how one could call your view intolerant? You're making a universal declaration that cultures or societies need to operate in a certain, secular, western way. Who are you to tell the Chinese that they can't implement some version of Confucianism in education? You think they care?

In any case - and this'll probably be my last post on the topic for the time being - I don't think your view on this subject is insane or out of line. I disagree but there is a certain part of your argument that I can sympathize with.

This is not true! There's a huge difference in how Israeli citizens with the Jewish nationality are treated and those without the Jewish nationality. I'm disappointed you repeat this, as I pointed this out a year ago in the Israel and Zionism thread.

But you see how one could call your view intolerant? — BitconnectCarlos

Intolerant of intolerance, yes.

--

Also, if I recall, the Japanese are not exactly forthcoming with extending citizenship to non- , let's call it, racially pure Japanese. And anecdotally, if you're darker skinned in Japan, it's not exactly sunshine and rainbows, from what I hear from friends in that position. I'm willing to be shown wrong about both of these things.

But also, Israel is an unambiguously racist state so alot of these comparisons are not really necessary. Other than maybe to sharpen just how unambiguously racist it is. So back to how it is terrorizing it's colonial territories.

Eh, Hamas has been blowing stuff up for years. It doesn't work. It probably just feeds the Israeli commitment.

They need a Gandhi or MLK Jr. Lots of marching and civil disobedience. That approach has a pretty good track record.

They need a Gandhi or MLK Jr. Lots of marching and civil disobedience. That approach has a pretty good track record. — frank

In the meantime Israel should keep doing what it's doing. They don't need a Gandhi or an MLK, or anyone. Only the Palestinians require that.

In the meantime Israel should keep doing what it's doing. They don't need a Gandhi or an MLK, or anyone. Only the Palestinians require that. — Maw

I tend to want to look at things mechanically. What would actually change things?

Does condemning Israel change anything? If so, how?

I've heard of many cases where foreigners can't even get a home to live in if they don't speak Japanese. — Manuel

That still happens sometimes though rarely. They don’t hate foreigners, but they really expect you to speak Japanese. Because the country is so bureaucratic, if you can’t speak or write Japanese it will be very difficult to deal with you, so some providers just refuse to give you whatever service is in question. It doesn’t seem like a race thing to me, just a bureaucracy thing.

On the flip side if you’re a bilingual foreigner everyone loves you.

Does condemning Israel change anything? If so, how? — frank

I see, it's easy to prescribe a solution for the Palestinians. They just need to produce a Gandhi or an MLK. No sweat. What should Israel do? Oh that's complicated how would condemning them even change anything?! Feel free to reread my posts, as well as @StreetlightX and @180 Proof, throughout the thread. Israel is the occupying force. The onus is on them. This has been explained multiple times. This shouldn't be a difficult concept to grasp for anyone over 14.

"They need a Gandhi or MLK Jr. Lots of marching and civil disobedience. That approach has a pretty good track record."

"Does condemning Israel change anything? If so, how?"

Since when did supporting Gandhi & MLK not coincide with condemning the oppressor, the British Empire & White Supremacy. That is just obscene hand waving without caring what the movements behind those people were about.

They need a Gandhi or MLK Jr. Lots of marching and civil disobedience. That approach has a pretty good track record. — frank

But they've done civil disobedience many times. They've also gone on hunger strikes.

But when they do this the western media ignores them. The consistent coverage they now get is "Hamas is terrorist."

The onus is on Israel to stop extending occupation and naval blockades. They have the power to stop and minimize the harm they are getting in return.

Gandhi and the peaceful resistance he was part of was also not operating in a vacuum. There were certainly violent movements against the British occupying force in India. Civil Rights in America was also pushed forward largely in part because of external pressures from the Soviet Union who leveraged American racial inequality against them. MLK also died with a 75% disapproval rating. Far higher than Trump's rating by the end of his Presidency. It would also be very wrong to say that MLKs vision of racial equality has been realized today, over 50 years after his death. Just an outright stupid demand to make upon Palestinians.

see, it's easy to prescribe a solution for the Palestinians. They just need to produce a Gandhi or an MLK. No sweat. What should Israel do? — Maw

Hamas calls me on the regular. I tell them "passive resistance, guys, that and lay down the fucking Salafism. You'll have the world eating out of your hand."

They just bomb a cafe the next day.

Israel, trust me, when Netanyahu calls me, it's nothing but the word fuck and fucking. He gets tired of it, but you gotta get those fucks in.

Yes of course Israel is terrible. It has been for decades.

This forum would be far better if people like yourself didn't insert themselves into conversations and issues they clearly know nothing about and hardly care about to begin with. Just a waste of time otherwise.

Gandhi said that it takes a lot of bravery to just stay still and get hit. If you can't reach that standard, which is extremely difficult for anybody, then it's legitimate to use force to defend yourself.

So Gandhi would not condemn people defending themselves.

Civil Rights in America was also pushed forward largely in part because of external pressures from the Soviet Union who leveraged American racial inequality against them. — Maw

"largely"? Or at all? Citation please. PM if you feel it's off-topic. I should like to see it, because it seems bat-**** crazy to me.

This forum would be far better if people like yourself didn't insert themselves into conversations and issues they clearly know nothing about and hardly care about to begin with. Just a waste of time otherwise. — Maw

Another wasted condemnation. Sigh.

Gandhi said that it takes a lot of bravery to just stay still and get hit. If you can't reach that standard, which is extremely difficult for anybody, then it's legitimate to use force to defend yourself.

So Gandhi would not condemn people defending themselves. — Manuel

Yes.

Well, it works out for me because I am Jewish and a Jewish state does serve as a form of security for the Jewish people. I can't pretend to be a totally disinterested observer to the question. I'm also generally supportive of self-determination movements elsewhere. — BitconnectCarlos

Ok, but I was wondering on what basis you claimed it to be the "Jewish homeland." Perhaps this is why, but if not, let me know if you like.

PM sent

largely"? Or at all? Citation please. PM if you feel it's off-topic. I should like to see it, because it seems bat-**** crazy to me. — tim wood

It was the French more than the Russians. French newspapers made sure everyone in the planet knew about Little Rock, Arkansas.

It became a national security issue because new countries, recently freed from colonialism were aware that the US was a hypocrite just when the US was trying to shore up the infrastructure of global trade. Countries that went with the communists disappeared off the global stage behind the iron curtain.

Ok, but I was wondering on what basis you claimed it to be the "Jewish homeland." Perhaps this is why, but if not, let me know if you like. — Ciceronianus the White

I don't know what else to tell you besides ancient/religious texts and Jewish oral history. Jews have prayers going back thousands of years that speak to this issue.

And sure we could take a step back and go "well rationally speaking...." and say that since the Jews are only one group that has claimed the land, what should make their claim rightful? Well who defines what is rightful? Who determines which sources are valid and which aren't? No human is in a position to do this, i.e. to say "here is the absolute truth." So the struggle continues.

It seems fair to observe that the way a thing is taken to be may - can and often does - depend on the time it's framed in and how it's regarded. If, for example, a fight is reduced to a time frame in which A hits B, then clearly A is the aggressor and B the poor victim. Similarly, if A hits B with a stick and B responds with tanks and artillery, then B is a pretty bad sport.

But these views artifacts of the point of view, and on that basis in itself have in most cases zero validity with respect to the most comprehensive view.

What then is the valid and correct view; what are the parameters of that view? Imo such a view takes in the history of the place since before WWI, not in all cases as determinative and controlling, but at least as informative, suggestive, and guiding.

A matchbook history is that folks there and then, by their own standards and the customs of their times, got along pretty well - I have this across years from emails from people who spent their lives there then. Along came the world and its wars and stirred and roiled that pot. The atrocities of the Germans after WWII and the anti-Semitism of the Soviets led to two large and distinct migrations of Jews to Israel, that having become a nation in 1948.

Since that time, 1948, a rabid anti-Semitism has infected all of "the neighbors" with a rage to annihilate Israel and drive out or kill all the Israelis. Imo that's the correct frame with and within which to regard the conflict. And for so long as the overt and covert intentions of the neighbors remains the same, so they will have war.

It would be nice if the Israelis could somehow win over the Palestinians, but near as I can tell, any attempts along those lines would be blown-up, literally, by the neighbors and their terrorist cells. Sometimes when the hatred runs deep into irrationality, the only course is to wait for the haters to die. And it can happen, depending on behavior, that some of them have to be helped.

Since that time, 1948, a rabid anti-Semitism has infected all of "the neighbors" with a rage to annihilate Israel and drive out or kill all the Israelis. Imo that's the correct frame with and within which to regard the conflict. And for so long as the overt and covert intentions of the neighbors remains the same, so they will have war. — tim wood

Really? The Arabs are anti-semites because they didn't welcome European invaders? I suspect the same can be said of Native Americans in regard to Americans, those Natives surely are anti-American.

But this raises an important point. If the US really cared so much about the plight of the Jewish people, which reached it's horrible zenith in WWII, why didn't the US take in most of the European Jews? There's plenty of land in the US, but no offer came.

Aside from the 1948 war, all other wars Israel was involved in were voluntary, with the Yom Kippur war maybe being an exception.

It would be nice if the Israelis could somehow win over the Palestinians, but near as I can tell, any attempts along those lines would be blown-up, literally, by the neighbors and their terrorist cells. Sometimes when the hatred runs deep into irrationality, the only course is to wait for the haters to die. And it can happen, depending on behavior, that some of them have to be helped. — tim wood

“My mother is in the hospital 7 kilometers [4.3 miles] from us, and we can’t get to her because of the shelling. Only my sister is with her. What do the Israelis think the end will be? Isn’t there anyone in the Israeli media who says, ‘Stop, desist, let’s think about what we want?’

“Aren’t there people who are afraid for the fate of the Jewish people and say, ‘Let’s think about what will be in a hundred years? Let’s defend the Jewish people.’ Since yesterday I’ve been wondering: Who’s the crazy one here? Us or them?

“Our young people are delighted [by the Hamas operation], really, because they have nothing to lose. There are two generations in our home – my generation, the older one, which harbored the hope that one day we’d live in this country peacefully with the Israelis, and my son’s generation.

“If he were an Israeli, he’d be drafted in another four months. He was raised on love and accepting the Other, but he’s in turmoil over what’s happening – over people he knew who were killed just yesterday, over the feeling of fear. And how will I be able to talk to him now about living in peace with the Jews?"

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium.MAGAZINE-four-gaza-friends-tell-me-what-it-s-like-to-feel-the-wrath-of-israel-s-f-16s-1.9806495

Yeah, rabid anti-Semites who deserve the caloric restrictions placed on them by Israel. :roll:

that having become a nation in 1948.

Since that time, 1948, a rabid anti-Semitism has infected all of "the neighbors" with a rage to annihilate Israel and drive out or kill all the Israelis — tim wood

On the one hand, you insist on a historical perspective, on the other hand you write of anti-Semitism as some disease that suddenly infected the region in 1948. This ignores the historical realities.

Just to name one thing, Israel didn't just "become" a state overnight. It was established by force of arms. And that included massacres and displacement of the muslim population.

Nor is anti-semitism simply a natural occurrence or a mere reaction to the presence of a state of Israel and the way it was founded. It's part of a variety of political agendas.

It would be nice if the Israelis could somehow win over the Palestinians, but near as I can tell, any attempts along those lines would be blown-up, literally, by the neighbors and their terrorist cells. Sometimes when the hatred runs deep into irrationality, the only course is to wait for the haters to die. And it can happen, depending on behavior, that some of them have to be helped. — tim wood

So, let me get this straight - the Muslims are unfortunately "infected" with anti-semitism, and since this is part of their nature and cannot be cured, Israel must unfortunately murder them until they are no longer a threat?

Yeah, rabid anti-Semites who deserve the caloric restrictions placed on them by Israel. — Manuel

Perhaps Palestinians should remove logs from their own eyes. And it may be that's what they have to do. With Yasser, the PLO, and friends and Hamas and Hezbollah, to name just a few of the more recent, they have sown or have had sown on their "behalf" an entire forest of enmity.