Yes but what about Japan's treatment of the elderly? Have you considered that? Huh?

And human shields too.

Israel needs a strong left. They don't have one and this can only lead to more monstrosities.

Amira Hass, Ilan Pappe and Gideon Levy can only do so much. And if one doesn't see things the way they do, you're going to have to rationalize how your state can do such things...

Fuck Israel and anyone who defends her immersartion of the world - including, and especially the United States - including and especially Biden.

:100:

If slavery is not wrong, nothing is wrong. — Abraham Lincoln

Ethnic cleansing is even worse than slavery. It cannot be "justified" by either politics or religion. Clowns like BitconnectCarlos et al keep the bloodbaths of humanity's moral circus in business.

I wish I could tatto over every comment in this thread the fact that whatever your view is on who started this or who the most intransigent or unreasonable party is, Israel has always, and is still now, doing at least 99% of the killing in this conflict.

Yep.

The situation is incorrigible.

But what is your deepest desire? Is it identical to what was behind your previous the most intensive debates?
— Number2018

Who gives a damn?

Although it's notable that this is like the 3rd or 5th time someone's tried to 'personalize' this and make this about who "I" am (is he happy? is he mentally OK? What's your deepest desire?). I love these questions. They're an an admission of utter substancelessness. They're a sign that one is one the exact right track. It gives me life, right before I ignore this kind of shit entirely. — StreetlightX

Your answer shows that you misunderstand my question and my apprehension of the concept of desire. I do not care about your mental health; it is none of my business. So, when I ask: "what is your deepest desire?" I mean, what are you doing while posting here.
By the way, your answer also manifests your implicit understanding of
desire as an individual psychological faculty. I try to apply the different concept of desire, taken from D&G's 'Anti-Oedipus': it is the ultimate collective investment into the overall societal order. One of the central themes of 'Anti-Oedipus' is the metamorphosis of desire: How can we start desire our own oppression? One of the D&G answers is that the seemingly revolutionary desire may disguise counter-revolutionary investments. For me, it is alarming when a left-wing intellectual is fighting for the noblest goals, but the actual result is the intensification of the left identity politics, accompanied by the erosion of liberal individual freedoms and the progressive concentration of power of the corporate media, big tech companies, and the neoliberal elites.

Off-topic posts like this will be deleted in future.

Haven't read the entire thread, but I truly wonder about the timing of all this. Seems to be a nice distraction for Bibi. I wonder if anyone else has read anything about this and whether it's supported by any evidence. I wouldn't be shocked in the least.

For me, it is alarming when a left-wing intellectual is fighting for the noblest goals, but the actual result is the intensification of the left identity politics, — Number2018

You literally have no idea what the fuck you are talking about. No one is arguing on behalf of Palestinians because of their 'identity'. They are arguing on behalf of Palestinian because they are being genocided. Neoliberal elites? What the fuck are you smoking?

Finkelstein and Amira Hass look at this stuff with utmost care. The Israeli media seems to accept it as a fact. This all point to your suspicion being correct. So yes, plenty of evidence, much of it in Hebrew. Won't be long before we get stuff in English. That is what is happening, alongside the Palestinian pent up anger at being treated like garbage.

So yes, another Netanyahu massacre, combined with long felt grief by the native population which is also causing internal fighting within Israel.

Israel's president on Wednesday [the 5/5] chose Yair Lapid, a centrist politician and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's strongest rival, to try to form a new government, but his path to success was still uncertain. Israel's longest serving leader, Netanyahu, 71, has been fighting to hold onto office through four inconclusive elections since 2019 and corruption allegations that he denies. ... Appearing to hold out hope he could still stay in power, Netanyahu appealed to ultranationalist Naftali Bennett to join him and form a "solid right-wing bloc" controlling 59 seats in parliament, a number still short of a majority.An embrace by Bennett, of the Yamina party, would persuade other right-wing legislators currently pledged to Lapid cross back, Netanyahu said in remarks following Lapid's nomination.

A 28-day mandate to put together a coalition ran out at midnight after Netanyahu failed to agree terms with potential right-wing partners, opening the way for Rivlin to assign the task to another member of parliament. ... Five of the Joint Arab List's six legislators threw their support behind Lapid in a letter the party sent to Rivlin on Wednesday, backing which the president noted in his speech. Failure to break the deadlock would lead to a new election, adding to political turmoil while Israel faces challenges from Iran's nuclear programme and pursues economic recovery after a swift rollout of COVID-19 vaccine.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/netanyahus-deadline-form-government-expires-rivals-eyed-2021-05-04/

'Defenders' of Israeli genocide here are Yahu's pawns in his own ploy of power.

This is absolutely party politics being played out at the expense of Palestinian lives and the deadly acceleration of geopolitical instability. It is maddening - but predictable - that no one is talking about this.

Obviously, all facts should impact the evaluation. But then one can do good things in one area and bad things in another, and those don't cancel out. It can still be shitty for the western powers to invade Afghanistan, even if the Taliban do terrible stuff. — Echarmion

Sure, we can tally up rights and wrongs and then say "well if it were me...." but I can only take this type of talk so seriously before I start rolling my eyes and tuning out. It's about what we do in response. Of course Israel deserves condemnation when condemnation is due, and we can entertain a variety of approaches towards how to improve the state of Israel and make it more moral. You remember your idea of non-response to rocket attacks? I told you that I was willing to entertain it, and I am still am, but what about the actual flesh and blood politicians? Would they be willing to sit on the sidelines while their voters and constituents are being bombed? Is this really a reasonable request to ask of a politician in any country or are we asking the politician to commit political suicide even if the idea is sound?

In international relations our approach needs to be practical, first and foremost, and with an understanding that no country is perfect. International relations is no place for moral crusaders and zealots. Incremental improvement and compromise should be the MO. Often look to allow your opponent a way to save face as opposed to backing them into a corner. Of course there are some instances where we can burn everything down but this should be a last option.

The point is that asking e.g. the Israeli people responsible for commanding and executing airstrikes to stop is in no way equivalent to asking for the destruction of Israel. Israel is not remotely in danger of being destroyed. — Echarmion

Absolutely, I agree and we can discuss ending airstrikes or the "occupation." What we cannot discuss -- and what the ruling party in Gaza has refused to acknowledge -- is Israel's right to exist. You've heard that phrase "don't engage with others who refuse to acknowledge your right to exist" - that's why you don't negotiate with Nazis.

Public condemnation of the Israeli government is probably more likely to be effective than public condemnation of Hamas, because Hamas doesn't need to win elections. — Echarmion

Hamas did get voted in, no? In any case I'm all for public condemnation of Israel when warranted and given this condemnation is in view of the deeper reality of the situation. See, I could actually rightfully condemn an act - say, how US soldiers massacred Dachau guards after liberating the camps (they should have rightfully gone to trial) but if that's all I'm saying then something is seriously wrong with me. Condemnation needs to be proportionate and in view of the bigger picture. Retaliatory strikes do not constitute genocide, and to claim so is possible indicative of bigotry.

People can b*tch & moan all they want, I don't care, it's action that counts. Money matters, weapons matter. I'm going to start donating $50 to Israel every time someone in this thread accuses Israel of genocide from now on.

Money matters, weapons matter. I'm going to start donating $50 to Israel every time someone in this thread accuses Israel of genocide from now on. — BitconnectCarlos

They're genocidal.

He wants to materially contribute to it.

So yes, plenty of evidence, much of it in Hebrew. Won't be long before we get stuff in English. — Manuel

I can't read Hebrew, so I'll have to wait. I also haven't yet heard anything directly from Finkelstein, but I look forward to it.

This is absolutely party politics being played out at the expense of Palestinian lives — StreetlightX

Yeah, and yet we get front-page articles like this:

One week earlier, Mr. Netanyahu’s opponents were poised to unseat him and form a new government, potentially ending the rule of the country’s longest-serving leader as he faces corruption charges. He denies wrongdoing.

But the past six days of national turmoil have offered the Israeli prime minister a political lifeline. When Arab parties and a right-wing politician pulled out of talks this week to join or back a rival coalition, the threat to unseat Mr. Netanyahu appeared to collapse.

“Netanyahu has always thrived in environments of uncertainty, of chaos and crisis,” said Mitchell Barak, an Israeli pollster and director of Keevoon Global Research, who worked as an aide to Mr. Netanyahu in the 1990s. “He basically goes from crisis to crisis.” —

https://www.wsj.com/articles/israels-turmoil-hands-political-lifeline-to-embattled-prime-minister-netanyahu-11621092285?mod=hp_lead_pos2

As if to say "What luck for Netanyahu!" Most read newspaper in the states.

Of course Israel deserves condemnation when condemnation is due, and we can entertain a variety of approaches towards how to improve the state of Israel and make it more moral. — BitconnectCarlos

One way is by stopping their brutal decades-long occupation and agreeing to a two-state solution, as most of the world wants.

He wants to materially contribute to it. — StreetlightX

I think they're doing pretty well. They ran Palestinians out to the west bank, where they responded by starting lemon farms. Israel diverted the water supply, so no more lemons. They responded to that by making small retail shops. The Israelis raised taxes til they went out of business and ended up in refugee camps that festered and bred despair.

It's a slow motion genocide, but yes, that's what they're doing.

Cool, we got $50 so far. I'll check back on this at the end of the month. Maybe I'll donate it on behalf of the forum.

Cool, we got $50 so far. I'll check back on this at the end of the month. Maybe I'll donate it on behalf of the forum. — BitconnectCarlos

I actually said it twice, so that's $100.

"The establishment of Israel is the basic threat that the Arab nation in its entirety has agreed to forestall. And since the existence of Israel is a danger that threatens the Arab nation, the diversion of the Jordan waters by it multiplies the dangers to Arab existence. Accordingly, the Arab states have to prepare the plans necessary for dealing with the political, economic and social aspects, so that if necessary results are not achieved, collective Arab military preparations, when they are not completed, will constitute the ultimate practical means for the final liquidation of Israel."

(preamble to the final statement - 1964 Arab League summit meeting convened in Cairo)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_over_Water_(Jordan_river)

Because they were invaded and displaced. Still are getting displaced. And terrorized in “self defense” — khaled

You just admitted here that Palestinians are genocidal, so given that you've already accepted that, why should the Jews be willing to negotiate with a group who wants them dead? The Jews have also been displaced and invaded and terrorized. They need security, and that security needs to be their own state. The Jews have offered to end the "occupation" on several occasions in exchange for peace.

Some advice - we're going to have to be willing to put these blood feuds behind us if our groups want to make peace. Actually, Israel has already made peace with much of the Arab world which has accepted their right to exist so it is possible. That's all it's about: Accepting our right to exist. We're here and we're not going anywhere.

And why can't Palestine's Arab neighbors absorb them as immigrants? The Arab countries could fix this problem if they wanted to but they don't because it's a thorn in Israel's side. The Arab countries just don't care about the Palestinians and that not Israel's problem. If you're a Palestinian then I'm sorry your fellow Arabs have failed you.

Haha, that's unfortunately not how it works or I'd be broke very quickly. It's one per a poster.

Haha, that's unfortunately not how it works or I'd be broke very quickly. It's one per a poster. — BitconnectCarlos

I'm starting to doubt your commitment to spinning this toward an Innocent Israel.

Israel is already guilty by virtue of simply existing for most of these posters.

Not to split hairs, but one dies for honour, dignity, altruism, etc. Generally one is not killed for them. Killing is more of a retribution, or lazy, kind of thing. I die to defend my family, the person doing the killing is likely operating in the most expedient way to achieve their goal, namely get me out of the way. The death may be honorable, the killing less so.

Israel is already guilty by virtue of simply existing for most of these posters. — BitconnectCarlos

Your own feelings are all that matter to you. What's your assessment?

It's honestly a complete mess. Rockets are being fired into Israel from residential areas which basically forces Israel to respond by striking residential areas. It's a question of how much collateral damage is accepted, not whether collateral is accepted. Then many of the rockets Hamas launches ends up killing their own people because their weapons are cheap and they're idiots who don't care about their own people. I'd be curious to know how the US would respond vs. how Israel is responding now. A military expert would be welcome in this discussion.

I will not assume the motivation of the Israelis, however, by striking non-military targets they are either absolutely terrible at properly aiming their weapons (not something I have heard mentioned about Israeli military) or the targets are being struck exactly as intended. Rockets and military strikes upon civilian populations are a one-sided contest. Interestingly enough no one seems comfortable calling this international terrorism, which is odd, unless my geography is bad, these are different countries, or just nations within the same country?

Just saying, not sure why the term is different when a Government does it, blowing up civilians is generally terrorism, n'est pas?

It's honestly a complete mess. Rockets are being fired into Israel from residential areas which basically forces Israel to respond by striking residential areas. It's a question of how much collateral damage is accepted, not whether collateral is accepted. Then many of the rockets Hamas launches ends up killing their own people because their weapons are cheap and they're idiots who don't care about their own people. I'd be curious to know how the US would respond vs. how Israel is responding now. A military expert would be welcome in this discussion. — BitconnectCarlos

It's insanity. There's no point in trying to wade through it with reasonable principles about accepting damage. They're locked in.

They need a cease fire.