How'd I do? — fishfry

Exactly as expected.

That does not warrant you to equate Hamas with Palestinians. You know that. — frank

That was not my intended meaning and I'm sorry if it came across that way. Sometimes in conflict people refer to the opposing military forces just via their nationality (e.g. "the Japanese invaded Manchuria") and they don't mean the Japanese people. I'm doing something similar when I say "the Palestinians."

I was just asking if he objected to Israel's treatment of the Palestinians. — frank

I've never heard of him doing this.

Israel is recognized by the UN. There's no need to be defensive about its existence or worried about its future. It's not going anywhere. — frank

I'm not really worried about Israel being destroyed anytime soon.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/5/16/netanyahu-says-gaza-bombing-to-continue-in-full-force

"Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said the deadly bombing of the Gaza Strip would continue despite an international outcry and efforts to broker a ceasefire.

In a televised address on Sunday, Netanyahu said the Israeli air raids were continuing at “full-force” and would “take time”, adding that his country “wants to levy a heavy price” from Gaza’s Hamas rulers.

Israeli air raids on Gaza City flattened three buildings and killed at least 42 people early on Sunday, health authorities in Gaza said."

So admittedly the bombings are of no strategic value but only meant to punish people living in Gaza, as if the brutal oppression wasn't punishment enough.

There's no possibility that Hamas is deliberately eliciting violent reprisals so as to mobilize world opinion against Israel, is there? Would they ever do such a thing?

It plays to the hardliners in the government, which is most of them, Hamas is a gift to them, because they have a "target" to go after. Yet this target is never defeated. But then they continue to bomb them. If Gaza did not have Hamas, Israel would have to make up a new enemy.



World opinion have been moving against Israel for about 10 years or so. An although world opinion is with Palestine, states are not. And if states don't get involved, the massacre will continue. Hamas knows this, but they also wanted to let the people in the West Bank know that they're in the occupation together.

But no, I doubt Hamas has world opinion in mind. They're also going through Covid, and the hospitals in Gaza are on the brink, they can't do more.

But no, I doubt Hamas has world opinion in mind. — Manuel

"World opinion" is so vague that it hardly matters.

They do get assistance and funding from the outside and although this conflict likely increases the assistance, naturally the expenses are spiralling in such a conflict too.

Yet Hamas isn't funded by Iran anymore, I think.

There's no possibility that Hamas is deliberately eliciting violent reprisals so as to mobilize world opinion against Israel, is there? Would they ever do such a thing? — Wayfarer

Say they were. What then? Does this say anything about Israeli war crimes?

A: No.

things we can do : fund J Street.

I think that's the shortest way to policy change in the US. With a bit of luck, Republicans will split in two parties for the next election, handing victory to the Democrats. That should give enough time to cement some changes in US foreign policy with respect to Israel.

They do get assistance and funding from the outside and although this conflict likely increases the assistance, naturally the expenses are spiralling in such a conflict too. — ssu

Some weapons - I believe - used to get in via Rafah, but ever since the Muslim Brotherhood was kicked out, the military regime in Egypt has been quite hostile to Gaza.

Yet Hamas isn't funded by Iran anymore, I think. — ssu

I don't know either. I believe Hezbollah may still receive support from Iran, but I doubt Hezbollah would get involved in this matter now.

Hamas might be sensitive to that but I've heard their objective here is probably more to do with elections that were supposed to take place in Gaza and West Bank. They're taking a tougher stance on Israel because they believe it will help with those elections, that Hamas will do better in those elections.

Now imagine that the parents of family B, outraged at this behaviour, decide to throw spears at the innocent members of family A. — Bartricks

:lol:

Such a shallow understanding of reality on display here really did have me laughing. How are you not embarrassed?

181 dead, 52 children.
— StreetlightX

52 kids who won't grow up to be Palestinian terrorists. — fishfry

What a truly disgusting remark.

Almost unbelievable, until I realized you’re the same truther imbecile from another thread.

Let’s briefly recap:

Netanyahu, to save himself politically, deliberately provokes the Palestinians during the end of Ramadan by storming Al-Aqsa. Knowing full well there would be a reaction, when it came it was used as an excuse for terrorism. (All in the name of self defense against Hamas terrorism, of course.)

214 Palestinians killed so far, including 58 children.

10 Israelis killed, 1 child.

10,000 newly homeless.

Live feed of Gaza from Al Jazeera:

https://www.aljazeera.com/

Now they are reporting shortage of medication. Also speaking of a man whose house was bombed and lost all his family...

Out of a sample of 850 rockets launched by Hamas, 200 ended up over Gaza. That's 23.5%, and that figure is from a few days ago. Currently, Hamas has launched at least 3000 rockets so given that same rate that's at least 700 of Hamas' own rockets raining down on Gaza.

Come to think of it, Hamas' rockets are almost certainly more likely to kill their own people than to kill Israelis. Israel has a defense system, Palestine has none. There is zero defense from this.

Some significant % of the dead Palestinians are directly Hamas' own doing.

Yet I wonder if the Palestinians are furious with Hamas as opposed to Israel. Apparently not.

You say that no country would willingly take attacks on a civilian population and do nothing about it. That's correct. It's simply much worse in Gaza, by a lot, as you point out.

It's shooting fish in a barrel. Total massacre. Hamas is defending itself too.

But then we are back at the beginning. If Hamas doesn't shoot rockets, Israel wouldn't need to retaliate. But if Hamas doesn't defend itself, it loses all dignity.

If Israel lifts the blockade and allows Gaza some actual relief, as opposed to crumbs, I'm quite confident violence would go down significantly. You'd disagree. I think it's just common sense.

It's just brutal. So brutal.

Moral debates are mainly garbage. I am antinatalist/ No one who creates children has a moral leg to stand on in my opinion. — Andrew4Handel

My guess is that quite a few Israelis have created children, and that those Israelis participating in the violence taking place have done so as well, or do so in order to protect children to be created. It occurs to me that the desire for the continued existence of Israel (beyond the lives of those now alive), and the desires of the settlers to settle, are premised on the desirability of creation of children--no more children, no more Israel, shortly. Why complain if Israel, or any other nation of children-producers, disappears from the face of the world?

But then perhaps, being an antinatalist, you long for the time when there are no legs to stand on, moral or otherwise, and since you seem to maintain Arabs procreate more frequently than Israelis, believe that the elimination of Arabs will tend in the long run to make that time more likely and its advent sooner.

Yet I wonder if the Palestinians are furious with Hamas as opposed to Israel — Manuel687

Some are. Do you know any Palestinians?

But if Hamas doesn't defend itself, it loses all dignity. — Manuel

:chin: Ya know, when your "dignity" is only "defended" via trying to intentionally murder random "enemy" civilians -- with most of the actual damage & killing going towards one's own people and property -- it might be time to take a step back and re-evaluate your approach, but that would require introspection which is virtually non-existent among terrorists, as well as leftists to whom everything is black and white -- good guys versus bad guys, bully vs victim and those poor victims can't do wrong.

As long as Hamas is in power there can be no peace.

thank you for this information!

I would not call what is happening a conflict nor a war, it is an oppression...my heart goes out to all those who have died, this world is too cruel!

You speak of Hamas as if it existed in a vaccum, it does not.

You don't mention settler violence, which is not only savage but humiliating in the extreme and the cause of the violence. Unless you suppose that those Palestinans in the West Bank aren't deserving of any rights.

As for "self-relfection", I think I'm more than meeting you half-way.

The self-reflection barb wasn't aimed at you. I had others in mind.

I'm not even following the situation in the West Bank because the current violence is occurring in Gaza where the Israeli army hasn't had a presence since 2005.

Regardless of how Hamas was created the organization exists for the singular purpose of destroying Israel and creating an Islamic state in its place. We have no reason to doubt their sincerity on this matter.

Elie Wiesel hated Hamas with a passion and always believed in Israel's right to defend itself. Whose side do you think Wiesel would be on today if he were alive? — BitconnectCarlos

That's easy, [MOD EDIT*]: on the same side he'd always been on his entire life: David's, and not Goliath's (who, in this case, is the apartheid, ethnic cleansing, oppressor State of Israel; Elie Wiesel's conscience would, no doubt, break his heart).

According to Norman Finkelstein ...

You're welcome!

Absolutely it's tragic really.

Yes, Wiesel would have obviously sided with Hamas. :nerd:

Since I can't believe you're actually this stupid, I'm just going to concluded that you're a propagandist with zero intellectual honesty or commitment to accurately representing thinkers.

Quit appropriating my peoples' serious thinkers for your woke bullshit. :roll:

Now that's cultural appropriation.

Maybe you should read some more Martin Buber.

I believe Hezbollah may still receive support from Iran, but I doubt Hezbollah would get involved in this matter now. — Manuel

Well, they already have shown they are awake here.

(Times of Israel, Friday 14th May, 2021) Three missiles were fired at Israel from Syria Friday evening, hours after the Lebanese Hezbollah terror group said one of its members was killed by Israeli fire during a donnybrook on the border.

(To give an context for this, during the 2006 war Hezbollah was firing over 200 rockets at Israel in a day.)

I haven't read any Buber, but I gleaned some of his ideas about Zionism and while they seem nice I can't help but think they're a little too idealistic. Buber highly valued consensus with the Arabs, but there would be no state of Israel if we took that seriously as the Arabs categorically refused any Jewish state in 1947-48.

In actuality under Buber's view it would seem that there would just be no state of Israel and Jews would just be under Arab rule.