So - are we doing the flame-war thing? — Banno
'cause that don't work well here. — Banno
But happy to play along, if that's what you want. — Banno
Or better, you could offer an argument, as against anecdotes from your lost loves. — Banno
It is a difficult question. I'm not sure it has an answer, but here's my first thought:
Morally, it's like Rousseau said: “The man who first fenced in a piece of land ...was the true founder of civil society."
Note, the quote is abbreviated. The full quote reads:
“The first man who, having fenced in a piece of land, said "This is mine," and found people naïve enough to believe him, that man was the true founder of civil society. From how many crimes, wars, and murders, from how many horrors and misfortunes might not any one have saved mankind, by pulling up the stakes, or filling up the ditch, and crying to his fellows: Beware of listening to this impostor; you are undone if you once forget that the fruits of the earth belong to us all, and the earth itself to nobody.”
But I disagree. The fruits of the earth are meagre if effort is not added; and it is universally observed that a man tends his own garden best. So, abbreviation of the quote is justified by the concept of productivity; and exclusive ownership is justified by Hardin's Tragedy of the Commons, in that, common ownership leads to neglect and abuse.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons
Hence, my first thought is that it is the effort it takes to make land productive that is the basis of ownership. — counterpunch
If we are, you started it. — counterpunch
Hence, my first thought is that it is the effort it takes to make land productive that is the basis of ownership. — counterpunch
Nice to see you leaning towards the labour theory of value. Never took you for a Marxist. Maybe there is hope...So the guy who works in the factory owns it...? — Banno
Maybe you can explain it. — counterpunch
But you advocated it... or so it seem'd: "Hence, my first thought is that it is the effort it takes to make land productive that is the basis of ownership." Perhaps it would be better for you to think of ownership of the land in terms of the effort needed to make other folk work it for you... would that suit? — Banno
Is there any legal / moral framework that can be used to resolve these issues in an impartial manner? — EricH
It's just that your first thought was that being able to work the land was the basis of ownership. I see you are backing away from that; that working in a factory does not imply ownership. Now you want to add a "first man", a mythological patriarch, an Adam, a protocapitalist.
Looks a bit like ownership isn't quite what you thought.
Of course, the first folk to work the land did so in small family groups, sharing produce on the basis of need, with no notion of individual ownership. But that doesn't suit your narrative. — Banno
I don't really have a narrative per se. — counterpunch
how ownership of land is originally established — counterpunch
I understood that question to mean, how ownership of land is originally established. If that's not the question - what is? — counterpunch
And of course there are many (maybe most) real world situations that are much more complex than simply A vs. B. — EricH
Ownership is conventional.
When folk disagree as to the conventions in play, there can be no final arbiter. — Banno
So if current owner obtained the title deeds by killing a previous owner (or forcing them off the property) - the descendants of the previous owner have no legitimate claim?If the question is about current ownership then the person with their name on the title deeds would seem to be the answer. — counterpunch
So if current owner obtained the title deeds by killing a previous owner (or forcing them off the property) - the descendants of the previous owner have no legitimate claim? — EricH
So if current owner obtained the title deeds by killing a previous owner (or forcing them off the property) - the descendants of the previous owner have no legitimate claim? — EricH
My question then would be why you isolate ownership specifically from ought type questions. — Hanover
What's that then? — Banno
Justice is the implementation of what is legally and morally right, — Apollodorus
Further, do you suppose that these are consistent? That what is legally right is what is morally right? How do you decide, if they were to be in conflict? — Banno
The principle that Africa belongs to Africans is morally and legally sound in my opinion. — Apollodorus
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