Why do you think that? To me the story has always been very simple and has nothing to do with personal identity. It is simply that Thomas does not believe that Jesus's life has continued beyond the crucifixion, until he meets the risen Jesus, and Jesus complains about that. — andrewk
Are they not the same person? My understanding is that 'Christ' is a name essentially meaning 'Messiah' that was applied to the historical Jesus some time after his death, and it is used mostly to refer to Jesus in relation to his post-resurrection activities. Use of the term also emphasises the belief of the speaker in the divinity, or at least the Messianicity, of Jesus. But they must be the same person because if post-resurrection Jesus is not Christ then Jesus was not resurrected - he was replaced. Hence either they both complain or neither does.Jesus does not "complain", Christ does — Heister Eggcart
Are they not the same person? My understanding is that 'Christ' is a name essentially meaning 'Messiah' that was applied to the historical Jesus some time after his death, and it is used mostly to refer to Jesus in relation to his post-resurrection activities. Use of the term also emphasises the belief of the speaker in the divinity, or at least the Messianicity, of Jesus. But they must be the same person because if post-resurrection Jesus is not Christ then Jesus was not resurrected - he was replaced. Hence either they both complain or neither does. — andrewk
Well let's accept for the sake of furthering the discussion, that Jesus being also the Messiah is tremendously significant and that Jesus saw it as essential that Thomas understand that.But in relation to the story with Thomas, the difference between Jesus and Christ is pretty huge. — Heister Eggcart
Let's look at that clarification - as attributed to Jesus by the author(s) of John:So, in my estimation, Jesus the Christ was not mocking Thomas, or giving disdain, but clarifying ...... Henceforth, Thomas is thus an Apostle of Christ, not merely Jesus. — Heister Eggcart
How does that clarify anything about Jesus's Messianicity? It doesn't even mention it."You believe because you have seen me. Blessed are those who believe without seeing me"
I'm very glad Thomas that you've now had this opportunity to learn that I have risen from the dead. Now there's one more thing that it's very important for you to know. That is that I am the Messiah [add various phrases about also being God and/or Son of God, according to one's preferred theology]. I would like you to go out and tell others about this. — risen Jesus Christ
We must bear in mind that we are talking about someone that has divine powers, not some inarticulate savage, and hence they would be able to express themselves in the clearest fashion possible, so that no possible doubt could remain as to what they meant. — andrewk
How do you get that reading out of the text? Here's the text in full:I think Christ's response is one in light of Thomas having already met and seen Jesus. And there's also emphasis on Jesus' appearance changing from before to after resurrection. — Heister Eggcart
I can't see any mention of a changed appearance in there. The passage appears very straightforward. Thomas does not believe his friends' claims that they have seen Jesus (and note that it uses the word Jesus, not Christ). Then he meets him, and thereafter believes his friends' claims. Lastly we have verse 29 which the author(s) attribute to Jesus (again - Jesus, not Christ), which has no corroborative evidence in any other text and is most naturally explained as the author trying to influence readers to believe him (the author).24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: [then] came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace [be] unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust [it] into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed. — Authorised (English) Version of the Bible, John 20:24-29
I suggest that if Christness and altered appearance are emphasised, that is done by later writers trying to retro-fit their preferred theology to a text that does not support it. — andrewk
Blessed are those who believe without seeing Me...
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