Philosophy is not to draw conclusions but to deepen understanding, which is why philosophical mysteries are never solved its like an endless digging of origin.
Even if you think you reached a conclusion there is so much more to think about.

This thread is starting its sixteenth page and the mysteries have not been solved yet. If they could be, I am sure that the leading philosophers would have come up with the answers, but I do believe that we probably all need to make our own unique quests. It does seem that we often have to acknowledge that we remain trapped in Plato's cave.

What does a story about cultural bias have to do with being unable to solve something that is intented to be an unending discovery?

Cultural bias does fit into the picture, in relation to our beliefs. For example, I was raised as a Catholic, and even though I have questioned these ideas a lot, I am aware that such ideas do still affect the way I am inclined to think about many aspects of philosophy.

Which is why a philosophical dicipline of unbias is needed.
Overcomming bias is like a habit or addiction that requires an awareness, will and time.
Thats not to say culture itself needs to be removed but the bias that influences your culture itself.
It is this awareness you can use to get out of the cave.
Kinda brings a whole new meaning to the term "Think outside the box" xD

I think that I am more at that point now and this thread was created about 6 weeks ago, but it has not fizzled out completely. My latest thread, especially the posts written this afternoon are a fairer reflection of my current thoughts on metaphysics.

Fair enough. :P

It does seem that certain experiences seem to be too harsh to make much sense of as a learning curve of experience. Actually, there have been times when I have found people suggesting that certain experiences should be seen in that way as being a bit too much. But, however we interpret our experiences, it does seem that there is a lot of suffering. Also, it does appear that some have more to endure than others. I think that the worst thing is when people have difficult experiences repeatedly, with hardly any break.

Also, we are taken aback by lockdowns etc, so I don't know how most of us would cope with situations like in Palestine. I don't think that I would cope very well. As it is, I wake up wondering what emails I will find, and I often get thrown off course by little stresses, which I build up in my mind.

It does seem that certain experiences seem to be too harsh to make much sense of as a learning curve of experience. Actually, there have been times when I have found people suggesting that certain experiences should be seen in that way as being a bit too much. But, however we interpret our experiences, it does seem that there is a lot of suffering. Also, it does appear that some have more to endure than others. I think that the worst thing is when people have difficult experiences repeatedly, with hardly any break.

Also, we are taken aback by lockdowns etc, so I don't know how most of us would cope with situations like in Palestine. I don't think that I would cope very well. As it is, I wake up wondering what emails I will find, and I often get thrown off course by little stresses, which I build up in my mind. — Jack Cummins

:lol: I just got reported to the authorities as a possible suicide case and 3 people in uniforms showed up to be sure I am okay. As I perceive society today we are overly dependent on technology. We seem to be trying to resolve every problem with technology instead of thinking human beings are the best for solving and preventing human problems. We are living in a world today where we don't aspire to be as angels but what to be like computers and believe we will all be better off when computers are ruling over us. I simply said I would rather be dead than dependent on such a technological machine/society.

The US once found fault in Germany for being a mechanical society and then we adopted German philosophy, bureaucracy, and education. Add our technology to that and we are a super technological machine/society, more like the Borg than the democracy we once defended. The point I intended to make is I rather die than depend on the Borg. That was perceived as a frightening personal problem rather than a social problem. Who wants to go to heaven and be part of a supercomputer instead of an angel? I think my words are failing to express my meaning? As long as I have my independence I am fine, but I do not want to depend on a society that thinks technology is superior to humans or even that technology can serve our humanness as well as, or better than, humans. Dealing with a computerized program is not at all like dealing with a human.

I hope that you are okay! I do feel completely demoralised by many aspects of life in our current world. It does seem to be becoming rather technocratic. I have been working on a couple of new threads and the one which I feel may be related to what you are saying is,' What are we? What Does It Mean To Be Human'. It is a thread which begins with Gaugin, who did his painting, 'Where Do We Come From? What Are We, Where Are We Going'? when he was feeling suicidal. Your views would be very welcome on that thread. If you read it some of it may appear as being a bit disjointed, because I had two ideas for threads and tried to use these to make one, and I have edited my title a few times.

I will add there is a difference between being suicidal and being perceived as suicidal. I once got seen as a risk by the transport police. I had got on the wrong bus, landed up in the country, and found a train station. I was hoping to get a train but they had finished, so I sat on a bench, thinking that I would stay out and, then, go straight to what work the next day. But, I think that the police thought I was about to throw myself under a train and I ended up being taken to A& E and having to wait to be assessed the next day. Of course, I never got to work the next day at all. Looking back, the funniest thing, although it was not funny at the time, was explaining it to a manager on the phone, especially as I remembered the name of the station as Radcastle rather than Hackbrige, and my manager told me that there was no such place. I think that she thought I was really round the bend.

Anyway, I am going out shortly, but I will probably log in to the forum at some point in a cafe. I am taking advantage of being able to go to such places, in case any further lockdowns are on the way. Anyway, please take care and hope that are able to express your ideas in my threads or any other ones.

That was a funny story of people jumping to the wrong conclusion. But at the moment I think it must have been quite frustrating.

Philosophy is not to draw conclusions but to deepen understanding, which is why philosophical mysteries are never solved its like an endless digging of origin.
Even if you think you reached a conclusion there is so much more to think about. — Tiberiusmoon

That is a brilliant statement. Especially in our later years, we are more prone to having a sense of deeper meanings, whereas when we are young our minds are more attuned to the accumulation of facts. I like an old book on logic that sits on my shelves that nicely explains we should never be too sure of what we think we know. That book was written before we were so technologically correct.

What does a story about cultural bias have to do with being unable to solve something that is intented to be an unending discovery? — Tiberiusmoon

Wow, I would say that cultural bias makes a huge difference. Right now advanced nations are biased for technological correctness. Christianity without illiteracy in Greek and Roman classics is not the same as Christianity was before we became technically correct. And technological correctness has to lead to reactionary politics and Trump being a US president and increased violence as we are polarized instead of being less sure of what we think we know. A society that desires the perfection of computers that replace humans, is not exactly the liberty and justice of our past.

Strangely, I have always been far more attuned to reflection than facts. I always had far more difficulty with rote learning than speculation. I think that may because I was an only child, so I was spent more time alone than most children. I also didn't like sports, so spent a lot of time reading, drawing and listening to rock music, by the time I was about 10.

I think that we are becoming far ' too technologically correct', as I think we discussed on the thread you created. But, I think that it has a particular bearing on philosophy. People are becoming so accustomed to Wikipedia, and other sources. I sometimes think a lot of people almost treat Wikipedia like the best living philosopher in the world, knowing all the answers instantly. I also believe that the public can edit, it to include latest information. I use it as a basis for an overview of a topic, but that doing one's own research is better. If everyone relies on Wiki as the guide, there is a danger that people will begin to think too much alike, and there will be less creative and genuine thinking.

Strangely, I have always been far more attuned to reflection than facts. I always had far more difficulty with rote learning than speculation. I think that may because I was an only child, so I was spent more time alone than most children. I also didn't like sports, so spent a lot of time reading, drawing and listening to rock music, by the time I was about 10.

I think that we are becoming far ' too technologically correct', as I think we discussed on the thread you created. But, I think that it has a particular bearing on philosophy. People are becoming so accustomed to Wikipedia, and other sources. I sometimes think a lot of people almost treat Wikipedia like the best living philosopher in the world, knowing all the answers instantly. I also believe that the public can edit, it to include latest information. I use it as a basis for an overview of a topic, but that doing one's own research is better. If everyone relies on Wiki as the guide, there is a danger that people will begin to think too much alike, and there will be less creative and genuine thinking. — Jack Cummins

In a thread started by Apollodorus, I realized communism turns everyone into a commodity and destroys human values. Marx and Engels find fault with a woman doing for others without being "paid" for what she does. Her pay is love, not money. Her pay is making people happy and helping them succeed in life, and being appreciated and socially valued.

Capitalism may or may not do the same thing. You express concern for our human uniqueness and that is essential to valuing human beings. Help me out here.

You ask about our mysteries and perhaps the greatest mystery is the human mind and consciousness. I think communism and capitalism are thinking of people as commodities that add to or take away from the national economy. That is not exactly a human value, because our human value is our uniqueness and our relationships and our sense of well-being if have a mansion or only the clothes on our backs.

What does a story about cultural bias have to do with being unable to solve something that is intented to be an unending discovery? — Tiberiusmoon

China kind of got frozen in time because of a cultural bias for tradition. I think Christianity and Islam can both hold people in the past. That is being a conservative.

Capitalism and communism seem to hold people as commodities that either contribute to the national economy or deduct from it. The young and the old have no value but the young can be made valuable with education, while the old are just a drain on society.

Women who stay home to care for the family, and our elders, once had value but I don't think that is true today. Especially the old are outdated and worthless.

I attended a few talks on Marxism as a student, but have never found the Marxist position to be very interesting as a philosophy in its own right. I think that Marx did make some useful points, mainly about politics. These have been used in all kinds of ways and angles, and I think that politics would have gone in a completely different direction without Marx, just as Freud had such an enormous influence upon culture.

However, I think, ultimately, he did think in terms of commodities. In this sense, he deflated imaginative possibilities. I think the mysteries of philosophy are not really about coming up with any definitive answers, or questions about metaphysics, but about not ruling out the scope of imagination.

I think the mysteries of philosophy are not really about coming up with any definitive answers, or questions about metaphysics, but about not ruling out the scope of imagination. — Jack Cummins

In reading the different philosophers, I have been amazed by the questions they have asked. Perhaps the most important thing is discovering how to ask good questions. Not all of the philosophers asked good questions.

For example, Marx had a hard time supporting himself, so his focus is on commodities. Weber asked better questions and tells us more about human nature and the nature of leadership. And to me, absent in philosophy, is the voice of women coming from the perspective of caregiving.

It is extremely important and hard, I do not to ask the right questions, because they form the basic framework for thinking. We are so lucky to have a forum which allows us to ask questions. At times, the questions which we ask are likely to involve repetition. But, I do think that all the new and subtle variations open up slightly different angles for thinking.

Of course, it is hit and miss and sometimes involves asking stupid or the wrong ones. What I find it that I often ask one question and just get a few replies, but on a few occasions, the basis of the replies give me scope for asking another question, which often seems to make sense to more people. So, it does involve experimentation and improvisation. I also believe in taking risks and asking awkward questions, and asking the ones which many may wish to sidestep or avoid completely.

Okay, and do computers ask questions? Does any other animal ask questions? For sure many animals are curious, but do they question what consciousness is?

Your reply also makes me think of questions about time and infinity. It seems to me you have said there are infinite questions and answers.

Regarding the question of whether computers ask questions I do have one thing which really puzzles me. If I have my music on and I am holding my phone, the name of the music artist or group I am listening and the song title come up on my phone. This happens even if it is track on a fairly obscure album. I really don't know how that works, and what artificial intelligence is behind this process.

The question as to whether there are infinite questions is a good one. I think that many recurrent themes in exploration, and it is more about slight variations. However, I suppose we are able to ask questions about specific matters, like certain theoretical ideas, comparisons and developments.

I used to wonder more about time and infinity more than I do now, because I feel that as concepts they are so interrelated with other aspects of life and reality. But, time is mysterious. Generally, people seem to feel that time is speeding in their subjective experience. During the last year I often feel as if it is slowed down, but that is probably due to lockdown and because I had to move twice. Also, I only joined this forum last year, but I feel as though it has been about five years. I think that this is because I have felt that it has lead me to do so much thinking. What is your experience of time?

Exactly — Athena

Really? Exactly?

can they wander — Athena

Why not? I don't recall there being a moratorium on wandering.

fortunately, we all tend to be good people — Athena

Are you sure?

Immediately Einstien comes to mind — Athena

Have you ever thought why?

I am having one of those days when I am struggling to get my act together, so I didn't follow the gist of your argument. Perhaps, you could spell out the way in which Einstein was relevant, or what point he made?

I am struggling — Jack Cummins

Perhaps the struggles we have are an important part of our experiences. If we don't know pain, how can we know joy? It may be interconnected and that our struggles and confusion are an essential aspect of life experience.

I used to wonder more about time and infinity more than I do now, because I feel that as concepts they are so interrelated with other aspects of life and reality. But, time is mysterious. Generally, people seem to feel that time is speeding in their subjective experience. During the last year I often feel as if it is slowed down, but that is probably due to lockdown and because I had to move twice. Also, I only joined this forum last year, but I feel as though it has been about five years. I think that this is because I have felt that it has lead me to do so much thinking. What is your experience of time? — Jack Cummins

I have read some of Hall's books such as Beyond Culture and our concept of time is cultural. Telling native people a dam must be completed by September may have no meaning to them. Say the dam must be completed before the rains come, makes perfect sense. In some cultures, it may seem presumptuous to agree to meet next week at 2 o'clock because what happens is dependent on nature or the will of a god, so the correct way to think of meeting at 2 o'clock is " if god is willing".

Furthermore, time is intangible but we treat it as though it is tangible. If it is 3 o'clock right now, depends on where you are. That is not so because nature makes it so, but it is so because we have agreed on time zones and the 12 hour clock.

But now the 12-hour clock! Where on your body do you have the number 12? Can you find the number 3? What do these numbers have to do with 60 and pi? Now there are some real mysteries! The facts may not seem mystical at all, but for me, they are totally and literally awesome! I would say the language of god is math.

Really? Exactly? — TheMadFool

I was agreeing with Jack. If our souls depend on the planet we live on, when it dies so do our souls. Now, this may not be true because our souls may not exist, and if they do, they may not depend on the planet living.

/quote/ can they wander

I do not know. I just know if our souls do depend on our planet, they would die with the planet.

Why not? I don't recall there being a moratorium on wandering.

The whole argument is built on conjecture and is abstract without empirical information. The argument depends on the notion that we have souls and they are dependent on the planet.

Are you sure?

Am I sure we all tend to be good people? That argument is based on the fact we are social animals. Social animals depend on each other for survival, and that means it is important to be valued by the group because if we not valued by the group our chance of survival is not very good, so it innate to us to figure out the rules for being valued. Humans think about what they think, so they have a conscience, but all social animals have an internal system of feelings of ease or uneasiness that tend to determine their relationship with others.

Immediately Einstien comes to mind
— Athena

Have you ever thought why?

Because Einstien said imagination is important and he did thought experiments to figure out his theories. As far as we know, animals do not have imaginations, and imaging what could be is unique to humans. However, it seems dogs do have dreams and that is a form of imagination. Hum, :chin: oh dear, is there a distinct line to be drawn between imagining "what if" as humans do and dreaming?

I think that maths does have a lot to explain about the nature of time, in terms of the figures. But, I think that there is also symbolism of numbers, which I think is interesting. As far as I know 7 is the number of perfection, and 6 as the number 12 as well, with the idea of 13 being considered as imperfection. At one point, numerology, the mystery of numbers was taken seriously, but I think now it is considered to be a rather outdated 'occult' practice. But, on the subject of time, I have thought about time zones recently, mainly as a result of using this site, because I am aware that certain people come on at certain times, and it is because our own days and nights vary so much.

I am interested in the subject of dreams and have thought about creating a thread on dreams. The only reason why I haven't done it is because it is sometimes hard to formulate ideas which make them work as philosophy issues, but I may be tempted to take the risk...

The universe, at least the solar system we live in, does seem to be mathematically constructed.

As for our bodies, there are 3 finger bones, segments, or knuckles to each of our fingers.

When we finger-count by touching each finger segment with the tip of our right thumb (e.g., starting with the tip of the little finger) we obtain a total of 12.

Then we count 5 sets of 12 on the 5 fingers of our left hand, obtaining a total of 60. The numeral system of the Mesopotamians was sexagesimal (base 60).

There are 12 months (new or full moons) in a year, 12 hours in a day, 60 minutes in an hour, etc.

There are also 12 constellations (1 for every month) which multiplied by 30 days yields 360 degrees into which the circular vault of heaven and by extension, any circle, is divided.

13 represented the intercalary month of 5 days added to the 360 (12 x 30) days of the 12-month year.

It all goes back to finger-counting and Egyptian and Sumerian astronomy and time-keeping. Astronomy was related to religion and later philosophy. Hence the importance of astronomy and math to Greek philosophy which aimed to look at the universe as a divinely ordered reality which, on the face of it, it probably is.

The Universal History Of Numbers - Internet Archive