Let's run some rough numbers.

Germany ranks 32 (USA is 18th) on the cost of living index and has an average living expenses of 716 Euro's per month in Berlin -- Germany has an average income before tax of 3716 Euro's, while minimum wage gives you monthly 1473 Euro's before tax.

Leaving out government subsidies etcetera.

Germany is cheap blud. I ain't smoking nuffin'.

edit: 1000 euro's per month is still cheap.

Well, it's kind of like saying to your friend in the same raft with a hole in it 'We're pretty fucked mate.' To which you reply, 'Yeah no shit!' — Question

I don't quite get what's supposed to be analogous to what - or who - in that analogy, to be honest. Or what the point of it is supposed to be. You might need to spell it out.

Is it intended to be a defence of the sort of comments made by Hanover, in that it's supposed to illustrate the merit in being brutally honest? Or was it about me? Are you saying we're fucked, just like the people in the raft? Or... what? I dunno.

No interrogation. I was just pointing out to BC that your statement was ambiguous. I had my struggles in college as well, and there's much to be said about just hanging in there.

I do appreciate your ownership of whatever flaws you may have, and it does not appear you're as fragile as your protective friends might've thought. My most significant point really is that you (and me and everyone) be cautious about adopting a personal philosophy that allows for idleness. In truth, such philosophies are nothing more than rationalizations for poor conduct.

Is it intended to be a defence of the sort of comments made by Hanover, in that it's supposed to illustrate the merit in being brutally honest? Or was it about me? Are you saying we're fucked, just like the people in the raft? Or... what? I dunno. — Sapientia

I think my point is that we're both the same age, similar problems, and similar interests, with the boat analogy. The hole in the boat are our problems, not identical, but similar. I don't even know the rest. It was meant as a stream of consciousness post.

Your situation is critically distinct as far as I can tell. You are self sufficient. To the extent you're not, you sell yourself short. Sure I'm judgmental. Who isn't?

No interrogation. I was just pointing out to BC that your statement was ambiguous. I had my struggles in college as well, and there's much to be said about just hanging in there.

I do appreciate your ownership of whatever flaws you may have, and it does not appear you're as fragile as your protective friends might've thought. My most significant point really is that you (and me and everyone) be cautious about adopting a personal philosophy that allows for idleness. In truth, such philosophies are nothing more than rationalizations for poor conduct. — Hanover

There you go again. What's wrong with idleness? Who or what get's to decide my poor conduct apart from my manager at work?

You seem to have your super-ego on the fritz here, and the constant need to justify it by criticizing others is well not really fun to listen to.

I think my point is that we're both the same age, similar problems, and similar interests, with the boat analogy. The hole in the boat are our problems, not identical, but similar. I don't even know the rest. It was meant as a stream of consciousness post. — Question

Okay. Well, that is true. But I don't agree with what some of the other people in this thread, and perhaps you yourself, have judged to be a problem.

I don't care if what I'm saying is fun to hear, and I think your defense of idleness is absurd, and really nothing more than a rationalization for doing nothing of import. So get pissy, call me a dick, tell me I'm not the boss of you, and carry on with your vitriol, but at the end of the day, do nothing at all because that apparently is your highest virtue.

[...] at the end of the day, do nothing at all because that apparently is your highest virtue. — Hanover

It never ends, does it?

Germany ranks 32 (USA is 18th) — Emptyheady

Apples to oranges.

edit: 1000 euro's per month is still cheap. — Emptyheady

Sorry, maybe city dwellers are inured to such costs, but that's still a lot of money, to me at least. The point remains, though, that one would have to find work in addition to going to school to survive in Germany.

Your situation is critically distinct as far as I can tell. You are self sufficient. To the extent you're not, you sell yourself short. Sure I'm judgmental. Who isn't? — Hanover

I wasn't expecting that kind of reply.

I've only become self-sufficient (or at least considerably more so) in recent years. I only moved out from my mother's house last December, and I only got back into work several years ago after spending several years unemployed and on benefits. So, if Question is not self-sufficient, then I can relate to that.

I do think that I am better off than I was, in more ways than one... but what's better for me isn't necessarily what's better for others, and I don't think that it's right to judge Question's situation based on these preconceived notions you seem to have about the proper relationship between parent and child. I think that your view is more based on convention, whereas I tend to think more outside of the box. The way I see it, there's nothing wrong with a child living with their parent for any length of time whatsoever, so long as it's a mutual arrangement. As for finicial support, that's a little more complicated, but I have a feeling that the way I see it would allow for a little more generosity.

Likewise with career choice. I see no problem with Question's minimum wage job if it's his ideal job, and if he finds it highly rewarding. Good for him.

Of course, I am judgemental, too, from time-to-time - as we all are. Perhaps I am judgemental more so than others, or more than I realise or care to admit. But it isn't really a good thing.

At least in the US, and I think in England (probably some other places in Europe too) the rate at which children either remain residents in their parents homes, or leave for a time and then return, has risen substantially over the last 30 years. This isn't a problem of too much parent-child attachment, it's an economic problem (mostly the children's).

College results in debt. A failure to get hired in a job (appropriate or not) results in inability to repay debt, more debt is added, and before long the unlaunched young adult is heading home. Once home, the pressure seems to be off and the search for work might become less urgent, because in many cases the parents are carrying the child. And the fact is, jobs for certain kinds of workers are scarce.

This isn't Question's situation (apparently) but it seems to be the situation that Hanover and I were strongly reacting to. College graduates are not always realistic about the benefits of education, and of course, colleges do not always act in good faith with prospective students. Were they operating in good faith, they would discourage a good many students from attending, because a good share of the students will not benefit occupationally.

I am glad I went to college; it started me on a life-long course of learning. I am also glad I was tracked into business classes in high school. Being able to type, and being more or less willing to work as a secretary or clerk kept food on the table more often than my English Lit major did. I am very grateful I never had to go back home to live with my parents. That would have been close to the ultimate humiliation.

That would have been close to the ultimate humiliation. — Bitter Crank

Tell me, where did this source of neuroticism, which I might very well be displaying, originate from? [A]ndrewk provided a partial answer; but, I am interested in your input on the matter. Surely, this goes back all the way to the Bible. But, what about the parable of the prodigal son?

I'd advise you to disregard the judgmentalism and looking-down-upon-ness as expressed in the replies of TimeLine and Hanover. — Sapientia

Geez, Sapientia, what on earth possessed you to compare me to a man whose sole ambition in life is to get stretch marks on his ankles? :(

Independence is something idolized here or at least in the west, which I find hilarious. I don't care for it. — Question

Well, here I must ask for your apology as I certainly either lacked cultural relativism or at the very least was haughty enough to assume that you were from a western culture, perhaps the latter a good thing in that you are able to articulate yourself rather well enough for the above-mentioned to escape my original assessment. However, and to reiterate, I never said that there was something wrong with living with your mother and certainly looking after your mother is strongly reinforced in places like China. I also said that your position could even be enviable - I love to garden and have many various roses and flowers that I cultivate as well as fruits and herbs - but it does not change the fact that Candide had to go through a substantial amount of absurdity to realise the point of having a garden.

Why, exactly, can you not take care of your mother and live on your own? If you had ambition, if you wanted to make something of yourself, why can you not fulfil your dreams and help her at the same time? This sacrifice is not an actual sacrifice, you see, neither is it love or guilt. It is your dependence and ultimately that can weaken you in the long-term. Would the only way you detach from your mother be when you meet a girl and simply transfer that dependence over to her? And what if this girl was a moron? Will you continue to depend on the moron until you become one as well? The one thing that has always disturbed me is how people say things like this:

"...question that originated from the demands of society, which I gladly have, will, and continue to shirk away from."

There is no justification for shirking away from the world and to say you will happily do so is no different to someone who witnessed a crime and instead pretended that they never saw anything. You are afraid to live and that means you do not love life. If you did, if you really understand how magnificent it actually is, you would fight against injustice, you would be passionate, you will take risks because you will not shrivel at the face of the ignorant but come face to face with it until they shrivel.

I am all for people sharing their personal stories and please do not assume I am attacking you. If you see what I say, if you don't, there is not much I can do. But I believe you are highly intelligent and the world - the world you understand to be wrong - needs people like you to take responsibility so that if you are as you say here:

"I am an ethical person..."

Than you would help more than just your mother. You would help yourself and not sacrifice yourself to pay the bills. But, in the end, your life and your choice.

Geez, Sapientia, what on earth possessed you to compare me to a man whose sole ambition in life is to get stretch marks on his ankles? :( — TimeLine

Your first reply, which was the very first reply to the opening post, and the first reply that I read. It wasn't as harsh or strongly worded as Hanover's, and you clearly had good intent, but I still found it objectionable for similar reasons to Question.

Looking down on people who spend time with their mother and eat KFC. What's wrong with that? And if his now ex-wife left him for those sorts of reasons, or because he didn't succumb to the social pressure of other people trying to push him up the 'career ladder', and instead chose a career that he thinks is right for him, then frankly she sounds like a shallow bitch who he'd be better off without.

Although, I've not read most of the discussion, and I've just seen this:

However, and to reiterate, I never said that there was something wrong with living with your mother and certainly looking after your mother is strongly reinforced in places like China. I also said that your position could even be enviable... — TimeLine

Okay, if we are talking about 1k expense as a student, then we agree.

I did work in addition to school, but not a lot -- it was still tough.

My most significant point really is that you (and me and everyone) be cautious about adopting a personal philosophy that allows for idleness. In truth, such philosophies are nothing more than rationalizations for poor conduct. — Hanover

Yeah, one of the reasons I left Buddhism as a serious philosophical conduct. I am fully aware that that is not the intention of Buddhism, nor the school of thought -- before I get accused of straw man -- but it is the unintentional consequence of it, the great apathetic state of indifference. Suffering is often a good stimulation to drive oneself to a better state of life. If you suffer, there is probably something wrong with the condition of your life, you should change something and medication is probably not the panacea -- nor philosophy for that matter.

There are medical exceptions, but I have a hard time believing that everybody has a medical ailment. (3...2...1... Wosret replying.....)

edit: there are only two dispositions you need to focus on in life, ambition and discipline. The rest will naturally follow.

There are several parables that speak of labor and reward. It's best to interpret these as comments on the Kingdom of God, rather than as practical policy. Should laborers hired late in the day get the same wage as people who worked all day? In heaven it doesn't make any difference; on earth, it definitely does.

Tell me, where did this source of neuroticism, which I might very well be displaying, originate from? — Question

Ultimately? I don't know--for your case or mine. We become 'neurotic' when our deep aspirations are thwarted, whatever those aspirations might be, and the experience of being thwarted is not resolved. So, the kid who expected to be the 'golden boy' who wasn't and never figured out what to make of this Big Disappointment, might react neurotically--just one example. People have all sorts of aspirations that get thwarted, and become a bit neurotic in lots of ways.

Me? I confess to having had conflicting aspirations that were and were not thwarted, were and were not resolved, and resulted in some definite neuroses that were/are problematic for me.

Where do our overly ambitious aspirations come from? Just my opinion, but I think the mainspring of our aspirations was in place before we left the trees. Our primate cousins (and we) are pretty status conscious. We, at least, have to go out of our way to avoid status competition. Those of our tribe who are "other directed" probably will pursue whatever social status games are available. Those who are strongly, and securely, "inner directed" can afford--indeed must--march to different drummers.

I don't know how or why people are inner or other directed, or in what combination of the two.

I wasn't expecting that kind of reply. — Sapientia

I like to keep people guessing.

I do think that I am better off than I was, in more ways than one... but what's better for me isn't necessarily what's better for others, and I don't think that it's right to judge Question's situation based on these preconceived notions you seem to have about the proper relationship between parent and child. — Sapientia

I understand we're faced with limited information and our opinions are no better than the information upon which they are based, and for that reason we often modify our opinions here when we learn additional information, but I think if we exercise such great caution before speaking, we'll never meaningfully engage. What you've said here is that you largely agree with the notion, at least based upon your limited experience, that there is true benefit from independence. I'd suspect that benefit is far reaching, affecting areas of self-esteem, outlook on life, social interaction, and emotional well being among many other things. I also understand you feel some kinship to Question, having been in a situation not dissimilar to his. Although, as I said, I do think the critical distinction between the two of you is his desire to remain where he is. In fact, he finds dependence no more or less a virtue than self-sufficiency.

I get that you might not be so bold as to call his position pathetic, but there's probably a middle road between that and silent respect for a position that you disagree with. For example, offering understanding, qualifying that what is good for you might not be so for him, etc, and then tactfully offering your two cents. Yeah, that's another way, but it hardly has the Hanoverian effect.

I'm just responding to your statement that judging is a bad thing. It's really not.

I'm just responding to your statement that judging is a bad thing. It's really not. — Hanover

It's a bad thing if you have bad judgement; that's my judgement anyway.

It never ends, does it? — Question

Well, to summarize here, I've taken a very strong stance against your stance that whether one is idle or one is constructive is irrelevant. My position is that it does matter, and it is in fact pathetic that you find no more or less pride in spending your days twiddling your thumbs than in actually accomplishing something. I get that you don't actually twiddle your thumbs, but consistent with what you said, you would find the 25 year old thumb twiddler who is cared for by mommy no better or worse than an actual productive member of society.

I could offer the platitude "to each his own," but I don't think that. In fact, the only reason society continues to function is because there are few enough of you and the system is large enough to absorb you. And this is not a conservative rant. I don't care if your incentive is a bigger house or because you feel yourself an integral part of the commune. No society, East to West, welcomes the loafer.

To the extent you're in a transitional state, getting yourself on your feet and relying upon your mother, I see nothing wrong with that. I also really see nothing wrong with living with your mother as long as you continue to advance in your own life and not just fall into a state of easy dependency.

The definition of loafer (and pay close attention to the synonyms and the sample sentence):

"1. a person who idles time away.

synonyms: idler, layabout, good-for-nothing, lounger, shirker, sluggard, laggard, slugabed; informalslacker, slob, lazybones, bum
"to his parents' chagrin, he was a complete loafer" "

It's a cultural thing. When the British ended their involvement with slavery in the Caribbean, it was with the assumption that free people will work harder than slaves. But the newly freed slaves found that they could spend 30 minutes a day growing pumpkins and get along fine. Certain British parties were outraged at the "pumpkin eaters" and suggested that they should be re-enslaved for their own good. You're sounding pretty close to what's called the Protestant work ethic.

"The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat." -- 2 Thessalonians 3:10

You're sounding pretty close to what's called the Protestant work ethic. — Mongrel

I guess, but I don't know any culture that has no work ethic, if for no reason than food doesn't just fall from the sky.

The former Caribbean slaves weren't starving. They weren't burdening anybody. They weren't threatening Western Civilization.

Just the fact that they weren't working hard drove the British bananas.

Okay, if we are talking about 1k expense as a student, then we agree. — Emptyheady

That was always ever the context in which I made my original point....

Well, here I must ask for your apology as I certainly either lacked cultural relativism or at the very least was haughty enough to assume that you were from a western culture, perhaps the latter a good thing in that you are able to articulate yourself rather well enough for the above-mentioned to escape my original assessment. — TimeLine

That's quite an argument to make that one must be from another culture to see things differently. I have lived in Europe for about 8 years and grant that experience as some sort of foundation where this thread is build on. But, if you want to really catch my drift, I have found that people who stay together are actually happier together contrary to the beliefs implicitly presented here.

I also said that your position could even be enviable - I love to garden and have many various roses and flowers that I cultivate as well as fruits and herbs - but it does not change the fact that Candide had to go through a substantial amount of absurdity to realise the point of having a garden. — TimeLine

Yea, that's the opportunity cost you forgo when living alone as opposed to with someone, who can help share the expenses.

Why, exactly, can you not take care of your mother and live on your own? If you had ambition, if you wanted to make something of yourself, why can you not fulfil your dreams and help her at the same time? — TimeLine

That was my original attempt with trying to integrate into society (through joining the military). In that process, which might seem strange harsh but one that I would desire for any of my offspring I found where I stand relative to most of my peers in society. I'm not a guy that likes being controlled or put into controlled settings, that stuff sets me off.

It is your dependence and ultimately that can weaken you in the long-term. — TimeLine

I would actually argue otherwise that my mother is dependent more on me emotionally; but, I don't want to overpsychologize the matter.

There is no justification for shirking away from the world and to say you will happily do so is no different to someone who witnessed a crime and instead pretended that they never saw anything. You are afraid to live and that means you do not love life. If you did, if you really understand how magnificent it actually is, you would fight against injustice, you would be passionate, you will take risks because you will not shrivel at the face of the ignorant but come face to face with it until they shrivel. — TimeLine

I appreciate your compassion on the matter and as a Stoic (moreso than a Buddhist as being a Buddhist in the West is very hard to adjust to) I am trying to always be more compassionate. That's not an easy task and I envy those who can be compassionate just for the virtue of being compassionate.

I am all for people sharing their personal stories and please do not assume I am attacking you. If you see what I say, if you don't, there is not much I can do. But I believe you are highly intelligent and the world - the world you understand to be wrong - needs people like you to take responsibility so that if you are as you say here: — TimeLine

Not at all, the worst judgement has already been passed, which was inevitable by a certain member and I know that in some minds I might appear as pathetic or a loser; but, that has yet to bother me in any way.

It's a bad thing if you have bad judgement; that's my judgement anyway. — unenlightened

It's a bad thing to judge, m'kay?

I get that you don't actually twiddle your thumbs, but consistent with what you said, you would find the 25 year old thumb twiddler who is cared for by mommy no better or worse than an actual productive member of society. — Hanover

You got it all the wrong way. The mother now depends on the son, given her age. There are unmet expectations being babbled away here from my mouth or fingers.

I could offer the platitude "to each his own," but I don't think that. In fact, the only reason society continues to function is because there are few enough of you and the system is large enough to absorb you. And this is not a conservative rant. I don't care if your incentive is a bigger house or because you feel yourself an integral part of the commune. No society, East to West, welcomes the loafer. — Hanover

Before you go off the wall, I'm not on welfare or benefits. I make my own small contributions at my local job. I don't know what your expectations or strict rigora are for an 'ideal citizen' but it ain't happening here. Besides, there is no such thing as 'society', eh?

It's a cultural thing. When the British ended their involvement with slavery in the Caribbean, it was with the assumption that free people will work harder than slaves. But the newly freed slaves found that they could spend 30 minutes a day growing pumpkins and get along fine. Certain British parties were outraged at the "pumpkin eaters" and suggested that they should be re-enslaved for their own good. You're sounding pretty close to what's called the Protestant work ethic. — Mongrel

You can take this to the extreme although thankfully we don't get those nut jobs around here, that blacks were 'inferior' to white's once upon a time due to their lifestyle and way of life. Ahough... you can see that pot being stirred today in regards to 'Muslims'.

Yea, the derogatory black stereotype is lazy.

I wouldn't say that living independent of parents and grasping challenge is a universally accepted ideal. Italian men can't do it due to housing shortage. In Korea opportunity is just too limited for everybody to rock out their potential. But it is an ideal in America. If you're in America, living contrary to that puts you in the oddball category. There are pros and cons to being an oddball.