Racism or Prejudice? Is there a real difference?

I like sushi

As another thread was closed thought this might make for a useful and hopefully more sane discussion.

I won’t really be participating myself but would be interested to see how/if people can handle this in a mature manner:

I would say anyone stating that oppressed minorities cannot be racist are deluded. There are many deluded people though, just move on. Delusions are delusions. You cannot ‘fix’ them directly, you can only suggest and be the best you can and hope by example others ask themselves to question themselves and their hard beliefs/views rather than adhere to what is comforting.

Racism is pretty much identical to prejudice. I may be prejudice against someone for their political leaning or their class - I undoubtedly am to some degree even if it is minute and barely visible to my conscious knowledge. I may, on the other hand, despise someone so much for their political leaning that I would happily beat, berate and even kill them.

Anything that drive one person to inflict harm upon another is done out of disgust and a believed justification - which manifests as ‘superiority’.

Racism is merely a subset of prejudice so it isn’t to be taken as of lighter consequence than racism just because it has no particular care for ethnicity or outward appearances.

So, if someone says ‘I’m not racist, I’m just prejudice” that isn’t relevant. The relevant point is HOW strong the feeling is and how aware the person is of its irrationality.

A religious zealot would put their religion before ethnicity/race. Degrading others because of their religious beliefs (or lack of them) is no better than degrading others because of your perceived view of their ethnicity/race.

180 Proof

Racism is pretty much identical to prejudice. — I like sushi

Violent assault is pretty much identical to dislike. :eyes: :roll:

Jack Cummins

↪I like sushi

I think that it is important to link racism and prejudice. I believe that it is useful to think of prejudice as being about how people prejudge or make assumptions about others, as a starting point for consideration.

I am not sure whether I will participate in this further. It all depends how the discussion goes...

Zenny

Yes. Many folks are making a distinction between prejudice and racism to disguise their racism.
Pretty transparent sophistry really.

BitconnectCarlos

I would say anyone stating that oppressed minorities cannot be racist are deluded. — I like sushi

↪I like sushi

I agree, but those who disagree will simply define the term differently. These talks are difficult to have because definitions have changed so much over the past few decades.

When it comes to racism I go by: the belief that different races possess distinct characteristics, abilities, or qualities, especially so as to distinguish them as inferior or superior to one another.
"theories of racism"

I'm definitely not a racist under this definition, but others on this forum would call me (or anyone) a racist for personally valuing their family or community above those of a complete stranger.

I like sushi

↪180 Proof

I’m not sure how you square ‘racism’ with ‘violent assault’ and ‘prejudice’ with ‘dislike’. If that’s your interpretation I can only suggest you consider your definitions may not fit in with everyone else’s.

All I can ask you to consider is this question. What is ‘Racial Prejudice’?

I’ll say no more because I don’t think the response will be without ire and emotion.

180 Proof

↪I like sushi

:point:

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/542132

I like sushi

↪BitconnectCarlos

That is the ‘standard’ definition of racism. My point was people have murderous intent towards all manner of people’s for all manner of reasons (including class, national identity, religion and political leanings).

A strong prejudice will result in one wanting to inflict harmon said group.

Zenny

People should be judged on their character and behaviour.
To judge someone just on color,race,ethnicity or even just because they are identified as a certain religion is racist and in the last case just bigoted. Prejudice is the normal word for this. This new trend of distinguishing is just an excuse to be racist or prejudiced in pursuit of power politics or personal ranting.
And using extreme examples Is both disingenuous and an insult to common sense. People know racism/ prejudice no matter how it's dressed up intellectually.

I like sushi

↪180 Proof

So you wish to ridicule rather than educate? I actual have dictionary that has multiple definitions for the term ‘prejudice’ ... please educate me and tell me what ‘racial prejudice’ is because it seems different to ‘racism’ bu what you’re saying.

I’m genuinely interested.

Cuthbert

Prejudice is a feature of attitudes, outlook, beliefs. Racism is unjust discriminatory practice and behaviour based on race. It gets complicated because *expressing* prejudice is a speech act - a kind of behaviour - and the expression of prejudice can amount to discriminatory practice. "I'm jus' saying" is often more than just saying. It can be an insult, a provocation.

Cuthbert

On second thoughts I might stay out of it. I'll see how it goes.

180 Proof

↪I like sushi

Follow my links to be edified and forget the initial ridicule. Once you're edified by me the ridicule will sting again and edify you even more. Or not. That's up to you.

I like sushi

↪Zenny

To be fair ‘racism’ has a very specific history in human conflict and the event of scientific understanding (which both worsened the problem and lessen it to some degree).

It is also a very big political issue in the US for quite blatantly obvious reasons. Not to say that it isn’t such a big deal in other parts of the world only that the US currently has the centre stage in global media.

I like sushi

↪Cuthbert

haha!

Of course. But I ask again, what is ‘racial prejudice’ then? If we can have ‘religious/class/racial prejudice’ is not racism a form of prejudice?

If I was to say I ‘dislike x people’ based on ethnicity/skin-tone is that not a ‘racist’ comment? Or are you suggesting it is merely ‘prejudice’.

I can certainly understand that the term ‘prejudice’ can be used to lessen the impact of ‘racism’ as it doesn’t necessarily carry such a heavy weight - being a term that doesn’t always mean ‘dislike’ and can mean, by definition, a ‘wishing to cause harm’.

The terminology can be perceived as being meant to ‘lessen’ the horror of racism and/or to ‘increase’ the scope of ‘racism’ beyond reasonable bounds (with or without intent). I’m quite sensitive to the various interpretations, but the ACTUAL definitions and meanings shouldn’t always be so easily overlooked especially on a philosophy forum.

Zenny

@I like sushi I do get the US is somewhat different in the media. But still,right is right. If in these peoples quest to dispel racism you become racist well that's nonsense.
I don't trust this kind of partisanship and rabble rousing mentality,neither the media,political opportunists or intellectual bigots.

I like sushi

↪Zenny

If you don’t like it leave. I would suggest just listening/reading and holding your tongue/fingers.

There are people here who can discuss topics without haranguing others. It’s a pretty sure bet that anything involving too much political weight will eventually result in a quagmire ... one-to-one, face-to-face discussion are better for that as people tend to be more reasonable and it is easier to cut through misunderstandings more quickly and efficiently.

You probably know this though. Doesn’t hurt to hear it though ;)

Anyway, I’m done here I think.

Bye bye :)

Jack Cummins

↪Zenny

You are fairly new to the forum, so probably are not aware of some things which people say on the forum which are really racist, or loaded with prejudices. I think it would be worth looking at some of the old threads on race on the forum. I believe that the moderators only make ground rules to try to prevent people being allowed to say anything. I feel that you are rushing into this, and will do not do yourself any favours if you keep on the way you are going. I am comploetely opposed to racism of any kind, but it is such a delicate topic, and very complex because racism appears in blatant and subtle forms.

Baden

↪I like sushi

Apples and oranges are both types of fruit; therefore, apples are the same as oranges. No, you're comparing apples and oranges.

Zenny

@I like sushi @Jack Cummins
I have followed this forum for maybe a couple of years before I joined so I know the partisanship in terms of certain issues.
However,both of your attitudes are kind of defeatist.
I'm a man who stands his ground when needed. The reason why nobody says the empire has no clothes is precisely because you guys duck out of anything too hot,and that leaves the loudmouths and bigots unchecked.
Philosophy ain't just thinking. You gotta speak truth to power if needed.

Baden

Racism (in all its forms, including anti-semitism) is deeply and inexcusably morally repugnant. Prejudice isn't, necessarily. One way it isn't is that it can be directed at behaviours, i.e. choices, for which people are morally responsible, rather than arbitrary biological traits. The danger of these word games is in obscuring that.

Zenny

@Baden Just so we are clear. Prejudice towards who and why?
Why the need for pre-judge,which implies judging too quickly and wrongfully.
Give me a concrete example of what's acceptable prejudiced behaviour?

180 Proof

Apples and oranges are both types of fruit, therefore apples are the same as oranges. No, you're comparing apples and oranges. — Baden

:up:

Banno

↪I like sushi

Racism.
"...the theory that human characteristics and abilities are determined by race...", from around 1930.

Prejudice.
"from Medieval Latin prejudicium "injustice," from Latin praeiudicium "prior judgment, judicial examination before trial; damage, harm"

What more need be said.

Baden

↪Zenny

That something isn't deeply morally repugnant doesn't compel me to consider it "acceptable". But, for example, I don't much like Trump supporters. That's a reflexive prejudice (though I try to work to mollify it). It's a prejudice based on their choice to support someone who I consider morally objectionable though. So, I don't consider myself to be morally repugnant any more than I consider Republicans who don't like Democrats to be morally repugnant. Those Republicans often just object to Democrats' choices to support things they morally object to, like abortion. They are, in no way, the moral equivalent of racists. And their prejudice is, in some sense, acceptable or justifiable.

Zenny

@Banno I thought language was use according to you.
The meaning of words is not always static or from dictionaries.
Even by your dictionary,prejudice can be racial. And Both are harmful and wrong.

BitconnectCarlos

↪Baden

It might help to define racism first. In the US a fairly common definition you'll see is simply power + prejudism = racism. So if you're a white person who is prejudice you are a racist.

I do think there's an interesting discussion to be had here concerning to what extent one ought value their community or family above others though, if at all.

Baden

So if you're a white person who is prejudice you are a racist. — BitconnectCarlos

No, you can be a white Republican prejudiced against Democrats, for example, and not be considered racist. White religious bigots also aren't necessarily racist. There's lots of prejudice against atheists that's not considered racist, for example.

Banno

I thought language was use according to you. — Zenny

I doubt you have much idea of what that might mean.

First, words are our tools, and, as a minimum, we should use clean tools: we should know what we mean and what we do not, and we must forearm ourselves against the traps that language sets us. Secondly, words are not (except in their own little corner) facts or things: we need therefore to prise them off the world, to hold them apart from and against it, so that we can realize their inadequacies and arbitrariness, and can re-look at the world without blinkers. Thirdly, and more hopefully, our common stock of words embodies all the distinctions men have found worth drawing, and the connexions they have found worth making, in the lifetimes of many generations: these surely are likely to be more sound, since they have stood up to the long test of the survival of the fittest, and more subtle, at least in all ordinary and reasonably practical matters, than any that you or I are likely to think up in our arm-chairs of an afternoon—the most favoured alternative method. (1957: 181–182)[1]

- Austin.

BitconnectCarlos

↪Baden

I'm not interested in defending the definition; only in bringing it up as one definition that's been floating around. I think the more interesting question is how one's responsibilities & attititudes towards ones community - which is often one's ethnic group - compare with responsibilities & attitudes towards outsider groups.

Benkei

I think it's mostly a semantic discussion to be honest. If you don't follow the reasoning behind some of the language use, the distinction between prejudice and racism seems contrived. I grew up talking about the subject without the distinction being made and I don't have the feeling the distinction is widely accepted specifically in the Netherlands.

There's nothing wrong with these persuasive definitions but I think at the same time we should be sensitive to the fact it's not the mainstream use for many, which might be a source of confusion for them.

Racism or Prejudice? Is there a real difference?

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