Spirituality therefore rather than religion is a positive for everyone in terms of finding an ‘inner peace’,that is very close perhaps I suggest to what the original idea behind the origins of gods, the deep understanding of what life is. — David S
In literature there are many examples but my favourite is the works of Tolkien. As much as he hated allegory in all its forms his own creation myth with Eru Iluvitar. — David S
Hmmm... but what is 'spirituality'? It's not a word that resonates with me at all and can mean anything you want. And I am not sure that the notion of 'a deep understanding of what life is' is anything more than a phrase. — Tom Storm
I get your point about ‘spiritual but not religious’, although in time I think you will identify one particular such tradition that really is the one for you, and when you do, I think you will find it has some ineluctably religious elements to it. But, that’s OK! No need to be phobic about religion. — Wayfarer
Tom, I guess that is the problem with language. Understanding. I try and keep it simple. “Spirituality’ for me is reaching a place where you know your own ‘true self`’. I think in particular in the modern world we can be so removed from our true nature. I also like the stoic view and the expression there are only two things an individual can control. “How you think”, and “how you act.” It may take a lifetime but finding your ‘true self’ and ways of thinking and acting can lead you there. I believe that this ‘true self’ everyone has and the search for finding it within yourself is spiritual. Many of course find religion is their path. — David S
I said that I don't know anyone who does. I suppose there could be religious people who really, genuinely believe what they say. I just haven't met any. — baker
Maybe they do, maybe they don't.You’ve never heard of religious martyrs? Suicide bombers? You think these people don’t really believe in god and rewards of gods afterlife? — DingoJones
Some of them are egomaniacs. It's taboo to name names in this category, but surely you can think of some people who are publicly regarded as "saints", but it is also known they had a "dark side", replete with sex and drug scandals, financial shenaningans, and so on.Why do you think they do it then? What is the reason why they are sacrificing their lives and claiming they do it because god wants them to?
I think the reasons depend on whether it is a true belief or not. If it's false, then perhaps humans are a bit crazy and have a tendency to believe any old nonsense. On the other hand, if it is true, then it could be because humans have considered the evidence and happily arrived at the correct conclusion. So to answer the question we have to first work out whether it's true or not. Then the fun begins. — Cuthbert
Maybe they do, maybe they don't.
Note that the word "religious martyr" tends to be applied to anyone who died "for religion", regardless of how they lived prior to that; regardless of the specific of their death (whether it's a bus full of schoolchildren dying in a bomb attack, or whether it's someone who prior to their public execution said some notable religious words); and regardless of who declared their death to be "for religion" (Romans might have killed a lot of Christians, but should we therefore surmise that they were all martyrs for Christianity?). — baker
Some of them are egomaniacs. It's taboo to name names in this category, but surely you can think of some people who are publicly regarded as "saints", but it is also known they had a "dark side", replete with sex and drug scandals, financial shenaningans, and so on.
Some just have nothing left to live for, nothing to lose, so in a last desperate attempt to make sense of their lives, they do something extreme and pin a religious label to it.
Some are pathological altruists.
Some are blackmailed into extreme actions ("We'll kill your family if you don't blow yourself up with this bomb in the middle of a busy public square").
Some are just mentally ill.
These options seem more likely to be the explanations for the cause of religious martyrdom than religiosity. Of course, we can't empirically test this, and the available anecdotal data is limited. — baker
I suppose there could be religious people who really, genuinely believe what they say. I just haven't met any. — baker
Also what evidence do you have that in the modern world we are more removed from our true natures than in the past? It could be argued, with good reason, that people are much more likely in this current comparatively wealthy time of education and free time (and bookshops and on line) to find themselves. This kind of searching has certainly been a hallmark of the middle class West for the past 50 years. — Tom Storm
The origins of Christianity lies in the immorality of the times. My hunch is other religions too had similar beginnings. — TheMadFool
The problem is that the image was clearly not the right one. — David S
One general observation I would make is that we lack the ability to distinguish religion from philosophical spirituality. Because of the dogmatic attitude of Christianity, everything 'religious' gets tarred with the same brush.
— Wayfarer
And you'd probably say that this is to our loss? — baker
And I doubt such is necessarily always the case.My point is that it would take a true belief in god in order to sacrifice your life for god. — DingoJones
Because I've seen religion and religiosity from the inside. Like I said, I know many religious people, but I yet have to meet one who would actually believe what they say.Sure, those are all reasons people might have for blowing themselves up. They don’t seem any more plausible than an actual belief they have that not only justifies but demands that behaviour.
Why are you so sure religiosity isn’t the reason even though that is the reason given AND we can see from the religious texts/religious leaders that they are instructed to do so?
Probably not, and it's not relevant for the most part anyway.Would you be equally dismissive of the reasons that I gave for any given action? If I told you I post on this forum because I want to practice debating would you suspect I actually was doing it for some other possible reason you can come up with?
And I doubt such is necessarily always the case. — baker
Because I've seen religion and religiosity from the inside. Like I said, I know many religious people, but I yet have to meet one who would actually believe what they say.
I've seen Catholics go to church, there chant "I'm so sorry I offended thee, God", then go home and get drunk and curse God, Jesus, Mary, and the Holy Roman Church, and continue in that vein until next Sunday, when it is again "I'm so sorry I offended thee, God", and so on. — baker
Probably not, and it's not relevant for the most part anyway. — baker
That if you really believe something you obligate yourself to act in accordance with it? — DingoJones
It goes the other way around too: For example, the way Catholic monotheism and the motivation to proselytize were conveniently omitted from Descartes' philosophy (probably in an effort to make Descartes look palatable to secularists?) which was then raised to a secular standard for philosophizing. What a Trojan horse!It interferes with the understanding. Much of what was best in ancient philosophy was absorbed into Christian theology, and then became rejected along with it. So there are philosophical ways of thinking and ideas that are rejected purely because of their association with religious dogma, even though that isn't an accurate depiction. — Wayfarer
But for whom is this really a problem? Perhaps for the professional philosophers. Other people who also have some interest in philosophy can and do skirt this bias.So there are philosophical ways of thinking and ideas that are rejected purely because of their association with religious dogma, even though that isn't an accurate depiction.
Well said. This lack of conviction is all around me here in the self-professed "Bible Belt" of the US where "belief", no doubt, is waved like a bloody flag. Few, it seems, 'believe with conviction'; I refer to them simply as believers (and "fundies" on relevant occasions). The rest who 'believe without conviction', as pointed out, I refer to as make-believers (and, deservedly quite often, "hypocrites" too).They contradict what they purport to believe with their actions. To me that’s a lack of conviction rather than lack of belief. — DingoJones
I know the basic question has been asked many time and in different ways but what I would like to hear and discuss from others the why of religion or more exactly why do humans have the belief that there is some entity or entities outside of their own species that have influence and determination of their being something after the physical death of a human. — David S
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