In conclusion, Heraclitus is in a bind. He can't talk about change unless he believes/accepts that something doesn't change (the basis for the continuity); also since he refers to both that which was and that which what was becomes as the same thing, it must be that whatever the change that has occurred, it did nothing to alter the essence of that which underwent the change. Basically, Heraclitus, despite being right about change occurring, must agree to an heirarchy of properties, the highest level ones being those that become the basis of the continuity necessary for the concept of change but in doing that he's admitting that change in essences can't occur and that maybe exactly what Parmenides has in mind when he said, "change is impossible." — TheMadFool
I also do not believe that pure or absolute flux is logically conceivable. In my opinion, it needs a non-flowing counterpart that makes it understandable what flux means through the contrast. — spirit-salamander
Well, yes, because people's belief is based on their perception of change. In the case of the sphere the object retains its shape, therefore, psychologically it is "the same object" with a different color whilst the cup has changed into a candle and, psychologically at least, it is a different object.
The way we perceive or interpret things psychologically isn't the same way they are seen in scientific terms. — Apollodorus
I think it does seem a bit hazy, but ultimately it comes down to the way you look at it. It's a bit like science stating that the earth goes around the sun when ordinary perception suggests that it's the other way around. Sometimes different perspectives can be reconciled and other times they can't. So, you can use different perspectives for different purposes and/or in different situations or go for a hierarchy of perspectives in which scientific, psychological, and philosophical/logical perspectives are arranged in some kind of order that makes sense to you and, if possible, to others. — Apollodorus
Anekāntavāda (Hindi: अनेकान्तवाद, "many-sidedness") is the Jain doctrine about metaphysical truths that emerged in ancient India. It states that the ultimate truth and reality is complex and has multiple aspects.[2] Anekantavada has also been interpreted to mean non-absolutism, "intellectual Ahimsa" — Wikipedia
I have a feeling that Zeno's paradoxes eventually lead up to the debate between rationalism and empiricism because motion is impossible if, well, you think about it (mathematically that is) but motion is actual/possible if we observe it. — TheMadFool
You need a non-changing background or counterpart in order to notice changes in a given object. — Apollodorus
I have a feeling that Zeno's paradoxes eventually lead up to the debate between rationalism and empiricism because motion is impossible if, well, you think about it (mathematically that is) but motion is actual/possible if we observe it. — TheMadFool
Or a very very slow-changing background. — spirit-salamander
We need to remember that ancient philosophers were not messing about — Apollodorus
By the way, did you know about anekantavada before or have you just happened to come across it now? — Apollodorus
Therefore Heraclitus has to take motion as an inexplicable axiom, against which nothing speaks. He would have to accept, as Nietzsche did in his spirit, any kind of movement as not graspable for our mind.
However, for his concept to be coherent, movement always needs a stationary contrast. — spirit-salamander
Ideas, the mind's stock-in-trade don't move, right? — TheMadFool
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