Maybe the conscious subject is that system that integrates information. — bert1
What do you mean "blocks the hard problem?". It attempts to answer it. — frank
The felt quality of consciousness is dealt as a secondary consideration that is simply explained by qualia being equal to consciousness,
— Pop
Isn't it? — frank
So we need a unique theory of consciousness for every incidence of it? — frank
What do you mean "blocks the hard problem?". It attempts to answer it. — frank
How? — Pop
Saying qualia is equal to consciousness is a clever way of avoiding explaining the mechanism of consciousness. — Pop
It's kind of obvious. The Hard problem straddles philosophy of mind and philosophy of science. It's a call for a theory of consciousness that addresses the subjective character of consciousness.
That's exactly what IIT is attempting to do. It starts with the assumption that consciousness is a brain based system. The parameters of this system are assumed to be constrained by the the nature of subjective experience. — frank
Basically, IIT is saying that experience arises from a system that acts upon itself — frank
If you insist that there is an aspect of experience that can't be described, I don't think it will just be ITT that collapses — frank
- Yes, but then measurement fails.If the 'what it's like' can be described, it could be added to the axioms, and ITT survives. — frank
Tononi proceeds on the basis that a brain state is equal to its integrated information,
— Pop
I don't think you're understandung the theory. — frank
Is self organizing? - this I agree with, but central to the self organization is a feeling driving it, and a theory of consciousness needs to explain this. — Pop
People like him emphasize to me that there's a genetic basis for what we call normal consciousness. So I don't think consciousness organizes itself. — frank
Emotions are the soppy, mawkish feelings that we have traditionally suppressed in empirical objectivity, but in phenomenology, particularly the philosophical zombie argument, emotions are the things that create consciousness. — Pop
Explaining this is a hard problem for any theory of consciousness. — Pop
I pretty strongly disagree with this. Emotion is an element of experience. There are conditions that produce a 'flat affect.'. These people are fully conscious, but don't report or demonstrate emotion. They're usually taken to be rude. :grin: — frank
Imo, the only people who can be indifferent about an instance of consciousness, are people who can meditate to a depth of ineffability, where they cannot say / recall anything about their experience. So in a sense they obliterate consciousness. — Pop
Pop I think a challenge to creating a theory of consciousness is that we really aren't all the same. — frank
Yes absolutely this is the problem. :smile: It is the problem for phenomenological approaches particularly, as whilst it is generally agreed upon that we are emotionally driven, not everybody is emotionally driven equally, and not everybody is self aware equally. Indeed ones understanding of consciousness and its mechanisms, if any, becomes ones consciousness. Whilst all around, there exists different understandings, which are equally valid manifestations of consciousness. :smile: — Pop
IIT leaves room for different interpretations to plug into it. It is quite clever in many ways. We will just have to wait and see how it pans out in the long run. — Pop
Anyhow, its always good to find intelligent and thoughtful conversation. :up: — Pop
Some people can quiet their emotions. Some can't. — frank
I think a challenge to creating a theory of consciousness is that we really aren't all the same.
For me, silencing judgment is easy. It's my baseline. I used to put it this way: I can stare and 2 +2 without being aware that it equals 4.
Suspension of judgement is a very valuable tool. It's a two edged sword though. You have to make judgments to live.
This might be a reason for starting with a bare bones theory: so focusing on what's most basic for all of us. — frank
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