Actually, it’s amazing that there isn’t more of an outcry about it. — Wayfarer
I think if you read up on it, you’re in a good position to be a ‘citizen activist’ about this subject, and it sure needs attention. — Wayfarer
Right! But understand how this would be treated if you proposed it in, say, postgrad biology. — Wayfarer
Also, you’re not talking ‘phenomena’. Phenomena are ‘what appears’. If ‘intelligence’ is something ‘behind’ everything, something that causes, then by definition, it’s not phenomena - it’s what causes phenomena. That’s a distinction that needs to be made. — Wayfarer
Because they couldn’t have turned up at the award ceremony? — Wayfarer
I can't prove the point, but maybe I can demonstrate that further speculation is warranted? — Foghorn
Can you provide examples of intelligence in operation that can't be explained by physicalist answers? — Tom Storm
The laws of physics are not a property of any particular thing within reality, but a property of reality itself. These laws are expressed in a seemingly infinite number of varied circumstances. So bouncing a ball might seem to an observer to be an entirely different phenomena than the orbit of a planet, but the same laws govern both.
What if intelligence is like this? What if it's not a property of this or that thing, but a property of reality which is expressed in many different ways in many different circumstances? — Foghorn
Which means, seeking out counter-factuals, things and people which will oppose your ideas. The only way to make them stand up to criticism is to have them criticised and to take criticism seriously. — Wayfarer
That's a meaty question. :D It's also not quite innocent, though. — Moliere
Life eats, shits, reproduces, dies. There are different functions a particular organism must perform or fulfill in order to be counted as life. — Moliere
When a claim is made, like most, I prefer to understand what the evidence for that claim might be. — Tom Storm
Bacteria defend themselves from viruses by grabbing a bit of DNA from the virus and storing it in the bacteria's own DNA. This allows the bacteria to recognize the virus the next time they see it, and provide the appropriate defensive reaction.
Bacteria are selecting particular information, storing it, and then referencing it as needed. — Foghorn
Does it make sense to say intelligence without their being an agent? — Mystic
There is an entity and an environment, and said entity prioritizes itself in some manner over the environment, and intelligence is this capacity to store information and change future behavior in similar circumstances based upon said information. — Moliere
The bacteria, upon re-encountering a threat it has met before, will recognize it and defend itself, and this is all pretty well understood in physical terms. — Moliere
Yes. According the the Big Bang theory, All Energy, Matter, Intelligence, and Consciousness in the universe came from the same source, called "The Singularity". But the question arises, what form did those different expressions take when they were united in the "seed" of our universe. My guess is that the Singularity contained generic Information (program), analogous to the DNA in a seed or egg -- or like the "Boot Program" of a computer. And since Information is non-physical (e.g. mathematics & logic) everything in our vast current universe could be compressed into a tiny package with no physical dimensions (i.e. occupying no space).I've been suggesting that what we call intelligence, and matter, may be not two things but one. That is, two different words for the same thing. United in reality, divided conceptually.
Isn't this the case with energy and matter? Isn't matter just one of the expressions of energy? — Foghorn
And since Information is non-physical (e.g. mathematics & logic) everything in our vast current universe could be compressed into a tiny package with no physical dimensions (i.e. occupying no space). — Gnomon
Perhaps what I'm attempting to reference is the DNA of reality? — Foghorn
Yes, and the interesting bit here, imho, is that we are discussing bacteria. They have no brain, no nervous system. And yet, they learned how to do CRISPR type operations maybe a billion years before a Nobel Prize winning scientist. And so we might claim that intelligence existed long before the evolution of higher life forms — Foghorn
Where can DNA be found outside living organisms? — Wayfarer
My guess is that the Singularity contained generic Information (program), analogous to the DNA in a seed or egg -- or like the "Boot Program" of a computer. And since Information is non-physical (e.g. mathematics & logic) everything in our vast current universe could be compressed into a tiny package with no physical dimensions (i.e. occupying no space).
And since Information is non-physical (e.g. mathematics & logic) everything in our vast current universe could be compressed into a tiny package with no physical dimensions
The reference was not to bio-chemical DNA, but to the non-physical "instructions" encoded in the chemical structure. The distinction is between the "carrier" of information Quanta (def 1.)and the message "content" Qualia (def 2.). We now use those letters metaphorically in reference to any design information (blueprint) that results in the construction of physical structure, such as the Universe. The Big Bang Singularity is sometimes compared to a Black Hole, in which material information is compressed into something we would no longer recognize as matter. It's close to pure, un-embodied mathematical information. :nerd:Where can DNA be found outside living organisms? — Wayfarer
The Big Bang Singularity is sometimes compared to a Black Hole, in which material information is compressed into something we would no longer recognize as matter. It's close to pure, un-embodied mathematical information. :nerd: — Gnomon
That's the crux of the Black Hole Information paradox. Everything that exists in reality is ultimately a form of quantum information, sometimes called a "quantum field" of empty space, where potential (virtual) particles pop in & out of existence. But when matter is sucked into a Black Hole, it's crushed & ripped-apart like a garbage grinder. So, where does the essential information go?This relationship between that which exists, and that which is real but doesn't exist, is of increasing interest here. — Foghorn
Those instructions are now doing their job. Like the encoded patterns of DNA, they are used as blueprints for construction of matter. And, like DNA, the code is recycled (reproduced) from one job to another, to continue the assembly of an expanding material universe.What happens to those instructions after the big bang? — Foghorn
But, since quantum level Information (patterns, relationships) is mathematical, it actually occupies no space. So, compression doesn't destroy it, it just deconstructs the physical form that we can sense. — Gnomon
Yes. But I prefer the term "Information", because it exists in two basic forms in the real world. The original meaning of the term, referred to meanings in minds. But it has recently been applied to describe the causal power (to enform) of Energy. Since Energy is not a static property of matter, limited to a single form, it hops from one physical object to another. It's a general property of reality, not a specific property of any one thing. :smile:I'm arguing along the lines that "intelligence" (likely a wrong word to use) is a property, not of this or that thing, but of reality itself. If we change the word "intelligence" to "data" maybe my theory becomes more science-like? — Foghorn
The original meaning of the term, referred to meanings in minds. But it has recently been applied to describe the causal power (to enform) of Energy. — Gnomon
Since Energy is not a static property of matter, limited to a single form, it hops from one physical object to another. It's a general property of reality, not a specific property of any one thing — Gnomon
The terminology I'm using here comes from my personal worldview, as expressed in the Enformationism thesis, in which everything in this world is one form or another of generic causal creative Energy, which I call "EnFormAction".Casual power to enform? — Foghorn
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