I think that the question of socialism vs brainwashing is extremely complex, and I do see your point about being brought up to be tolerant as a form of brainwashing in itself. I am not sure that I was actually brought up to tolerant as such, because my parents were homophobic and I am bisexual. I was also expecting and agreed to be confirmed as a Roman Catholic at age 11, which meant that I was accepting it as a lifetime faith, and that was many years before I had even begun to question religious beliefs at all.

I wonder if anyone is ever taught to be open minded, or whether it happens by default. I also believe that it is extremely complex because we live in such a diverse society. As it happens I have not brought any children into the world, but if I had, I really don't know what I would teach them in order to enable them to think as freely as possible. I am sure that I would give them a wide perspective on religion, science and knowledge. However, I would probably have to be careful in order not to indoctrinate them to be politically correct. Thank goodness that I have no children to worry about, as it is hard enough sorting out my own ideas

I accidentally knocked my phone, sending my reply through before I finished it. But, I managed to edit and finish it afterwards, as above. I also wish to add that I do believe that we need to 'earn' or find our own ideas for ourselves, but I am not sure that everyone does. I would imagine that educational systems are so variable in giving people the foundation for being able to think for themselves.

We are are all socialised to see things certain ways. We hold views, we inherit views that are a product of family and culture. How do we recognise whether the beliefs we hold are sound? They may well be useful, even if wrong. What impels any given person (particularly in a culture where family and tradition is central) to break out of a mould and question suppositions?

Sexual orientation (as you've identified) or a relationship with someone from another (the wrong) faith may be the launching pad to embrace a new value system. Disruption of some sort seems to be key.

I have known kids in several families who have been taught tolerance and free thought since they could speak. Guess what values they hold as adults?

I also wish to add that I do believe that we need to 'earn' or find our own ideas for ourselves, but I am not sure that everyone does. — Jack Cummins

:up:

Teaching people ideas is probably not very problematic. It's when you teach people to be afraid of questioning, doubting, entertaining alternatives... Whether it's coercive control, wrangling slaves, ostracizing someone for having different political views or being gay or reading books, violent apostasy or good ol' Stockholm syndrome, it's always all downside. Occasionally atheists convert after consideration. It's odd, it's rare, but it's fair because they're adults using their experience, feelings and reason. But mostly theists are raised in their religion: it's chosen for them, and contains astonishing threats, even if conveyed with love.

I watched a show about the Southern resistance to integration last night so that is what is really on my mind, and the thinking of prejudiced people is so outside my comprehension. I feel so hurt because I know if I were treated as native Americans, or the people of color, or Palestinians have been treated, I would not like it. How could we have so little empathy for other human beings? And clearly, the Christian churches could have spread love instead of hate, but they did not. It is democracy that has pushed for equality and peaceful resolution of differences, not Christianity. While Christians want to believe they are the reason our society is better than others. That blind and false understanding of reality is not tolerable.

Teaching people ideas is probably not very problematic. It's when you teach people to be afraid of questioning, doubting, entertaining alternatives... Whether it's coercive control, wrangling slaves, ostracizing someone for having different political views or being gay or reading books, violent apostasy or good ol' Stockholm syndrome, it's always all downside. Occasionally atheists convert after consideration. It's odd, it's rare, but it's fair because they're adults using their experience, feelings and reason. But mostly theists are raised in their religion: it's chosen for them, and contains astonishing threats, even if conveyed with love. — Kenosha Kid

I think we have agreement up to the point of saying atheists convert after consideration. At that point, I think we have a different opinion of who causes the problems? The bible was used to justify slavery and segregation. Not all Christians agree with that, but they love the idea that Christianity is the way to a better a reality, and that is not true. It is democracy that pushes for the better reality. We are not sharing the same reality until we agree is it democracy or religion that raises the human potential?

saying atheists convert after consideration — Athena

Ah, not quite what I said. I am aware of some edge cases of atheists concluding that there must be a creator. That is not to say that this is the main way atheists convert, just that it's possible. Nor am I saying their reasons were in any way sound :)

How could we have so little empathy for other human beings? — Athena

Miseducation. Religion-sanctioned scapegoating. State-sanctioned economic exploitation. "Divide & control" classism (oligarchic hierarchies). You know: the (modern?) vaneer of civilization – tribalism rationalized. Denials of reality that also, more expediently, self-servingly, "define reality" in the short / medium term at the expense of the long(est) term.

I think reality is a form of participatory realism. We exist to manifest and give meaning to the universe's collective dream that requires consistency because it is shared. Detailed proof to follow or not.