So why is one tolerated but not the other? — IanBlain
Condemn was probably too strong a word. But I have experienced people who will scold or frown on bug squashing. For example, I have a good friend who comes over to my house on a lot of afternoons. If we're on my back patio and I start stepping on a line of hungry ants making their way from the grass, he'll tell me to "just leave them alone." Sometimes I horse around and start stamping them even faster and he will say "Come on, man" or "I'm just going to leave then." I'm pretty sure he sees it as immoral but we're good enough friends that he overlooks it. — IanBlain
No one knowingly does evil. — Socrates
Le meglio è l'inimico del bene (The perfect is the enemy of the good). — Voltaire
Possibly because it is more rarely witnessed.Meanwhile: catching fish and releasing them is arguably more brutal but rarely condemned. — IanBlain
Possibly because it is more rarely witnessed.
Bugs are still in many places, but to witness the catching and releasing of fish, one has to go to a suitable body of water, which is, statistically, a rarer occasion. — baker
Furthermore, smashing bugs seems immature and childishly destructive, as opposed to fishing, which is seen as an actual, constructive hobby. — Kasperanza
Fish which are caught then released die all the time, bleeding to death, intended or not. Releasing doesn't mean "not lethal." And everyone who does catch and release fishing is aware of that outcome. That means its done for entertainment, doesn't it? — IanBlain
Sometimes I horse around and start stamping them even faster — IanBlain
When I raise my sneaker above an army of hungry ants, or step on a spider, or smash a pesky bee, the goal is often to repel or destroy unwanted invaders either because they are annoying, may sting or bite, or in the case of spiders, are just creepy. — IanBlain
Furthermore, smashing bugs seems immature and childishly destructive, as opposed to fishing, which is seen as an actual, constructive hobby.
Furthermore, smashing bugs seems immature and childishly destructive, as opposed to fishing, which is seen as an actual, constructive hobby.
Now, of course, there's cruelty toward fish in sport fishing, but those that do engage in sport fishing don't do so with willfully cruel intentions toward the fish (as is often ascribed to those who step on bugs for the fun of it, rather than for reasons such as you've ascribed). Reminds me of Cobain lyric taken out of context, "It's OK to eat fish, because fish don't have any feelings."
Whether this would be frowned upon or not I still think would be dependent on what we take the participants' intentions to be in partaking in the sport. If we find they do it for the pleasure of cruelty, then frowned upon (by those who don't value cruelty). If we appraise that they don't, then we may think them ignorant and so on, but we don't hold the same type of aversion to the participants.
No?
The spider doesn't know it is entering a building that doesn't want it. It just sees a gap it can fit under, under the door and goes through it. The bees that get stuck in a house actually wants to leave the house as in all cases of bees in my house. Of course they do, there's nothing in the house for them. They get stuck confused by the windows. Even common wasps in spring and summer want to make a quick exit but get confused by the windows. Only in late summer/autumn do common wasps increasingly hone in on artificial human sweet food/drinks as they face natural food scarcity at that time of the year. Indeed they'll go crazy to get that then rare fix. — Wetsocks68
You're basically dishing out the highest human judicial punishment to insects that more than likely are going about its harmless activities. If a spider had to die for looking creepy then that's very sad and wrong.
Given the time spiders aren't creepy and can even be cute.
Due to their rapid and inconspicuous nature, humans rarely get to make a good acquaintance with their features and behaviour. There's no hope of any acquittance if it meets a shoe every time though.
Have a look at tarantulas, start with them. I know a friend who is scared of spiders but can handle tarantulas.
So in short, we have sport fishermen who don't go out to kill fish. Fish that definitely don't die every time they're caught. Compared with insects being instantly killed upon mere presence and proximity to the person, all the time? With zero hope of the targeted insects living to see another day, unlike the targeted fish which has a higher chance to see another day.
I agree with your comment that the two are generally perceived quite differently; I just question if it's rational. Fishing is certainly constructive when the goal is to obtain a meat source, but from a moral standpoint I struggle to distinguish recreational fishing from stepping on ants. And there are definitely people who appear to see it in moral terms. — IanBlain
They [bugs] get stuck confused by the windows. — Wetsocks68
From my personal moral perspective, I don't see the problem in recreational fish killing or childish bug smashing.
If it makes you happy to do these things, then it's moral for you to do it. Just don't harm humans or animals owned by humans. — Kasperanza
Sport" is, in my opinion, inconsiderate. Someone who is inconsiderate is not as culpable as someone who is mean, sadistic or evil. But they are more culpable than someone who is absent minded, afraid or spontaneously reacting without thought.
I try to think before I act. I take spiders outside because I'm considerate of their life, and because they perform life in their sphere. But I will kill an elk when I hunt. — James Riley
I would still suggest fishing may be more callous and even cruel though, Even if it weren't lethal it requires one to have what to me seems like an unhealthy stomach for witnessing and causing suffering. Whatever their intelligence, the fish are clearly pretty distressed or in pain. It's pretty different than when I go to step on ants. For them darkness looms momentarily and becomes total, before dying under a giant's foot. — IanBlain
But as mindless as they are, bugs still capable of sensing and reacting to danger. That being said, I have to assume that they can perceive the pair of ominous, white, alien objects pictured above as dangerous when they make the mistake of crawling anywhere near my feet. Right? — IanBlain
Look how quickly a fly will move if you go to swat it with your hand. They have ways of escaping and avoiding danger. — IanBlain
"The speed at which those images are processed by the brain is called the "flicker fusion rate". In general, the smaller the species, the faster its critical flicker fusion rate - and flies, in particular, put us to shame.
Professor Roger Hardie, from the University of Cambridge, investigates how flies' eyes work, and he has an experiment to determine their flicker fusion rate." — Why is it so hard to swat a fly?
That being said, I have to assume that they can perceive the pair of ominous, white, alien objects pictured above as dangerous when they make the mistake of crawling anywhere near my feet. Right? — IanBlain
There are some bugs I don't kill however: butterflies, pray mantises, etc. — IanBlain
What's so foreign to them about a shoe though? Their world is full of large objects and surfaces.Yeah, most likely it will seem too foreign for them to see as a danger or not.Well, any object coming to squish a fly will make it jet off. Most insects will scurry off with slow moving objects coming on to them. Their locomotion can let them down with fast moving objects. I mentioned the slow-motion thing, if it's true, these small creatures see the threat coming and so some won't move, thinking this object will stop and move on (like a bird might), or try to move but are too slow. Whether we know for sure they know this incoming danger with them being still, it's hard to say. If you hovered an object over them for longer when they are still to see if they think; "screw this, I'm going to make a run for it." ,and then they react, would be a sign they knew it was a threat and ran off or with enough time they realised it is weird and run off. — Wetsocks68
Spiders can often sit still around danger if they feel they can't out run a threat or feel invisible with their background, they sit still and hope to blend in with the environment to not be spotted and killed. — Wetsocks68
Ants probably detect the incoming danger in slow-motion like the fly can but simply can't speed off as fast as a fly can, into three dimensional space. Even if this research wasn't correct, ants are hell of a lot slower than a fly and flies have three dimensional space to rapidly take advantage of. — Wetsocks68
Ok, I see your sentiment.
The other thing is, if you don't get them, find them weird, or find it odd the things they do. Then they could think the same for us, with us being wildly different to them.
I admit, it's hard to get used to. The thought of a cave centipede crawling over me at night to my awareness. Is a very hard one to accept with me not freaking out. But I also think it would be a bit weird to be super calm with it.
Well it would also be freaky if your friend stood at your bed whilst you slept. So I think the odds are, I don't think the cave centipede wants to be near us or on us either. But my god if it happened to be on me at night, I would just have to jump out bed and run or flap, freak out, I would still try not to kill it though. — Wetsocks68
As I suggested above in the post, it takes the expression "going out of your way to kill something" to a whole new level. Even still, there are likely people who disapprove of me stepping on ants for no reason, but would condone (or perhaps even celebrate) the above. Makes you think. :razz: — IanBlain
“That is true; ants on the pavement can't move quickly enough to escape. In my experience though, they only run away when they are alone or in very small numbers.. but I am not sure in response to what. Vibration, sight, chemicals? I have noticed their behavior is pretty different when in large groups and near their home. When I step on ant mound and just stand there with my shoe on their home, they scatter chaotically for about a minute but they don't run away or at least they don't go far. Instead they crawl all around and sometimes underneath my shoe trying to get both inside and outside. At least that's based on my observations: and I've stepped on a lot of ants”. — IanBlain
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