A New Giuliani Tape Shows a Key Witness Didn’t Testify Accurately in the First Trump Impeachment

The testimony of a key witness in Donald Trump’s first impeachment trial is under new scrutiny by the House Intelligence Committee following a report this week that undercuts the veracity of his claim that he was unaware of a Trump effort to pressure Ukraine into mounting a meritless investigation of Joe Biden.

On Monday, CNN reported new details of a July 2019 call between Rudy Giuliani, then–US special envoy to Ukraine Kurt Volker, and Andriy Yermak, a top aide to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky. During that call, Giuliani, then Trump’s personal lawyer, aggressively pressed Ukraine to announce investigations into dubious accusations about Biden and about alleged Ukrainian meddling in the 2016 election. Portions of this conversation have previously been reported by BuzzFeed News and Time, but CNN published the full audio of the 40-minute call. The recording of the conversation contradicts Volker’s sworn testimony to Congress that he never witnessed any attempt on the part of Trump and Giuliani to muscle Ukraine into launching an investigation of Biden, Trump’s possible opponent in the upcoming presidential election.

More lies being revealed.

Yes, I defend Trump. Guilty as charged. So do millions of others. Over 70 million voted for him the last time I checked. — NOS4A2

And that is itself a fallacy: ad vericundium (?). Populum, sorry.

But instead associating me with them you associate me with the one or two fascists you can think of. — NOS4A2

Not true: I associate you with Republicans, not one or two fascists or racists. As pointed out, Republicans (especially including any of those 70 million) had their chance to divorce but made their bed. They are now Trumpsters. Sorry, that's on them. If they want to turn their backs on him, denounce him, endeavor to return to the community of man, they can. You can too. But you'll have to leave the Republican Party to do it.

You engage in the same species of thinking put to use by the very fascists and racists you pretend to oppose. — NOS4A2

Oh, I don't pretend to oppose them. I do oppose them. My father opposed them. His father opposed them, and his father too, clean back to tossing a monarch out of my country. The greatest generation opposed them. Hell, back in the day, the Republicans opposed them. The fact I use the same species of thinking does not make me like them, any more than both sides of the Civil War, or WWII or any war used guns does not make them the same species of of shooters.

So while I may be guilty by some tenuous association, you’re guilty of using the same fallacies, the same hatred, and the same behavior. — NOS4A2

Again, using the same hatred and the same behavior does not allow you to paint me as you or them, nor do I paint myself as such. It's the thinking which is palpably different. My thinking is right, and your thinking is wrong. The simple fact that we both think does not make us alike. There is no fallacy when you are what you are. You defend Trump who is the Republican Party. I'd beseech you to leave, to come home, but I know how you feel about the community of man. You want the best of both worlds. Understandable, but so is ostracization or, less than that, remonstration.

Funny, how you pretend to be cynical about politics and politicians, except when it comes to your master and suddenly you become as naive as a newborn lamb. Good luck with getting anyone to take you seriously. — Baden

...Just worth quoting.

And that is itself a fallacy: ad vericundium (?). Populum, sorry. — James Riley

Millions of people voted for Hitler, too. Many I'm sure were good, well-intentioned people. So can we really judge them all poorly for helping along a disaster?

Yes.

Yes. — Xtrix

:100: I was pretty sure it wasn't vericundium so I looked it up again and found ad populum is what I meant; tellingly appropriate for this discussion though, was reference to "appeal to the mob." LOL! Spot on.

I think some of the 70m are okay and just got caught up in the pack mentality. We all know how conservatives love a good dog pile. But it's too bad they couldn't find a better rep to help turn over an apple cart that may need tipping. Hell, with the right person maybe we all could have gotten on board. But no, they had to pick Trump. Jeesh. And now all they need is one, just one real leader to stand up on his/her hind legs and call that bitch out. But no, they all seem to be on the Trump train. Sad. What the hell happened to America?

On that point, what are they going to do when Trump goes? Matt Gaetz? Ivanka? Who is the heir apparent? LOL!

Trump Jr.

Trump Jr. — Benkei

And the political dynasty was born and many in the world took a collective deep breath :sparkle:

Trump Jr. — Benkei

Normally I would say that even Trumpsters aren't that stupid. Then I remember. I think they'd rather float Ivanka because she's hot and you know conservatives. They want her to dominate and pee on them, and they probably think the left would rather have a woman.

And that is itself a fallacy: ad vericundium (?). Populum, sorry.

I evoked the 70million+ to show that your generalizations were on the hasty side, not to say that I was right.

Not true: I associate you with Republicans, not one or two fascists or racists. As pointed out, Republicans (especially including any of those 70 million) had their chance to divorce but made their bed. They are now Trumpsters. Sorry, that's on them. If they want to turn their backs on him, denounce him, endeavor to return to the community of man, they can. You can too. But you'll have to leave the Republican Party to do it.

I’m a registered independent, “unaffiliated”. I cannot vote in any primary in my home state even if I wanted to. But I wager none of this absolves me from any sweeping generalizations.

Again, using the same hatred and the same behavior does not allow you to paint me as you or them, nor do I paint myself as such. It's the thinking which is palpably different. My thinking is right, and your thinking is wrong. The simple fact that we both think does not make us alike. There is no fallacy when you are what you are. You defend Trump who is the Republican Party. I'd beseech you to leave, to come home, but I know how you feel about the community of man. You want the best of both worlds. Understandable, but so is ostracization or, less than that, remonstration.

Sure it does. Your rhetoric is one of groupthink, in-group/out-group stuff, "othering" and all that piffle. If this is how your "community of man" operates I want no part of it in any case.

On that point, what are they going to do when Trump goes? Matt Gaetz? Ivanka? Who is the heir apparent? LOL! — James Riley

There will be no one like Trump in my view.

Remember that he spent 40+ years cultivating a brand, appearing in TV commercials for Burger King, in movies, on magazines, talk show interviews, on the Apprentice, and so on. He was able to "read the audience," and as essentially an entertainer knew how to pander to what he (rightly) saw was the more enthusiastic wing of the Republican party -- what were initially the Sarah Palin/Tea Party type people, and was able to repeat populist slogans (some borrowed from Bernie Sanders), played social media very well, embarrassed his opponents by disregarding common rules of political conduct, and eventually clawed his way to the nomination. Since he stood for nothing in terms of policies, the establishment was happy with him and fell in line, deathly afraid of his voting block -- and his supporters loved him even more because he was doing what they always dreamed of -- sticking it to the liberals and what's seen as the liberal offshoots: the media, Hollywood, academia, feminism, civil rights, environmentalism, etc. etc.

He had 90+% approval rating with Republicans, and energized a segment of the population like never before with his antics -- despite his administration's policies sticking it to his voters economically. He is still much beloved, and much feared, and will probably run again in '24. How can there be another person like this?

Two things are possible: he fades away, or he remains popular. If he remains popular, that doesn't necessarily mean it will translate into votes for other Republicans. Sure, when he's been on the ballot he's done pretty well, despite losing the popular vote twice. But one way to look at this is to say that this represents their "best shot"...and the fact that it still came up short is telling. Remember: 90+ approval rating. People worshiped this guy like a cult figure. So if they can't win with him ON the ballot, what about him not on the ballot? It'll be interesting to see. I think it's more a matter of whether the Democratic voters remain energized as well. If nothing passes in congress the next two years, they'll have nothing to be energized about (without the motivation to oust Trump), and so it could very well be a disaster.

But the bottom line is: there is no heir to Trump. He's the party now. Whether that's enough to win? Who knows. Like always, it comes down to whether the majority of Americans who are against Republican policies and dislike Trump come out and vote or not.

I evoked the 70million+ to show that your generalizations were on the hasty side, not to say that I was right. — NOS4A2

I evoked the guilt by association to show there was no light between those who associate.

But I wager none of this absolves me from any sweeping generalizations. — NOS4A2

It absolves you from being a Republican but it does not absolve you from defending the ultimate one.

Sure it does. Your rhetoric is one of groupthink, in-group/out-group stuff, "othering" and all that piffle. If this is how your "community of man" operates I want no part of it in any case. — NOS4A2

No, it does not. I do not pretend to not use the same tools as those with whom I disagree. The fact that I do so does not close any gaps between me and them. And you, defending the partisan champion user of the tools you seem to abhor, makes you one of them. If you want no part, you should cease defending him. But really, that matters naught. You have been taught here, in the other threads on Individualism and Statism, that no one, on any side, will ever let you have the peace you pretend to seek. You remind me of a deer who would complain of wolves, or the wolf who complains of the fleet deer. Except they don't complain. Suck it up, butter cup. Welcome to life.

Nailed it. As usual, it's the Democrats election to lose. Never underestimate their ability to lose.

But the bottom line is: there is no heir to Trump. He's the party now. Whether that's enough to win? Who knows. Like always, it comes down to whether the majority of Americans who are against Republican policies and dislike Trump come out and vote or not. — Xtrix

Never underestimate how quickly people can forget the old if something new and more interesting comes up. Trump can very quickly look as old as he is.

In truth the GOP is leaderless.

In truth the GOP is leaderless. — ssu

He's still as much a "leader" as he ever was, in that they still pay homage to him. But he's been a figurehead all along. So where's the leadership? In the same place they've always been. It's Mitch McConnell, Kevin McCarthy, and other establishment neoliberals. They always knew Trump was a buffoon, but they're afraid because he's still popular with his base.

Remember how Trump was always bitching and moaning about 'the deep state' which was a cabal of corrupt FBI and State Dept officials who were trying to sabotage his presidency? It now turns out that HE was driving a covert attempt to acquire data on his political opponents:

WASHINGTON — As the Justice Department investigated who was behind leaks of classified information early in the Trump administration, it took a highly unusual step: Prosecutors subpoenaed Apple for data from the accounts of at least two Democrats on the House Intelligence Committee, aides and family members. One was a minor.

All told, the records of at least a dozen people tied to the committee were seized in 2017 and early 2018, including those of Representative Adam B. Schiff of California, then the panel’s top Democrat and now its chairman, according to committee officials and two other people briefed on the inquiry. Representative Eric Swalwell of California said in an interview Thursday night that he had also been notified that his data had been subpoenaed....

While Justice Department leak investigations are routine, current and former congressional officials familiar with the inquiry said they could not recall an instance in which the records of lawmakers had been seized as part of one.

Moreover, just as it did in investigating news organizations, the Justice Department secured a gag order on Apple that expired this year, according to a person familiar with the inquiry, so lawmakers did not know they were being investigated until Apple informed them last month. — NY Times

Deep state, indeed.

It's like the liar stressing the word "honesty" too often which is how you know he's lying. We can rest assured that anything Donald Trump complained about his opponents did, he has done himself.

It’s ironic because Schiff seized the phone records of Devin Nunez, Rudy Guilliani, Jon Solomon and more during the impeachment inquiry. The poor guy. The difference between Schiff’s investigation and the DOJ’s investigation is that one was investigating a crime, the other for political reasons.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/schiffs-surveillance-state-11575506091

He's still as much a "leader" as he ever was, in that they still pay homage to him. But he's been a figurehead all along. So where's the leadership? In the same place they've always been. It's Mitch McConnell, Kevin McCarthy, and other establishment neoliberals. They always knew Trump was a buffoon, but they're afraid because he's still popular with his base. — Xtrix

That other pay homage to you or want to be in good terms with you isn't leadership.

That Trump can vouch somebody and be against somebody isn't leadership, it's close to having influence on the outcome. That isn't leading.

That other pay homage to you or want to be in good terms with you isn't leadership. — ssu

Nor did I once say that.

But I’ll repeat: he’s as much a leader now as he’s ever been. He’s a figurehead. The leaders are McConnell et al.

during the impeachment inquiry. — NOS4A2

Which was grounds for investigation.

Historians rank Trump among worst presidents in US history, new C-SPAN survey shows

Out of 44 presidents reviewed for the survey by 142 historians and professional observers of the presidency, Trump landed at 41 — the lowest ranking of any president in the past 150 years. The only presidents who ranked lower than Trump were Franklin Pierce, Andrew Johnson, and James Buchanan.

William Henry Harrison, who died only 32 days into his presidency and had the shortest tenure of any commander-in-chief, ranked just above Trump.

Remember "the big six" accounting firm Arthur Andersen?...

In NYC the Manhattan DA Cyrus Vance, Jr's office is about to criminally indict the Trump Organization itself and maybe employees as soon as this evening or tomorrow afternoon for tax fraud, etc. Also, superceding indictments will follow in the coming weeks and months culminating in criminally charging company officers and tr45h himself.

New York State, Fulton County Georgia & Washington DC will follow later this year or early next year, and I suspect US DoJ won't unseal the Mueller Investigation's sealed indictments until late 2023 or early 2024 ... in time for the US Presidential Primaries. Meanwhile, tr45h will continue grift raising tens-hundreds of millions of dollars off his +74 million MAGA-morons to pay his mounting legal bills as his zombie companies implode and his "paper" billions go up in smoke.

:victory: :mask:


I guess I'm not as prudent or historically knowledgeable as the 'historians' but, IMO, tr45h was (and if this Republic is lucky – for a long time to come – will remain) the worst President since in US history ...
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/486293

I wouldn't get your hopes up. If there was solid information linking Trump to crimes it probably would have leaked by now. His CFO might go to jail. I wouldn't be surprised if Rudy goes to jail, but that's about all that can be hoped for. He can tie up any civil penalties for years, likely until he is dead, and one of the lessons he seemed to have learned from his decade of losses in the 80s is to risk other people's capital instead of his own, so his wealth will probably keep soaring on passive investment.

No "hope", Count, just decades of experience as a paralegal (in the financial industry no less) and carefully following various "witch hunts" since 2016 closely gives me confidence instead that tr45h will be criminally indicted (though by many informed accounts his health, diet & fitness being as poor as they are for an elderly man, he could expire at any time). Hope has got nothing to do with it, but we'll see shortly.

Justice delayed....
Crude as our medieval forebears may have been, they were not all wrong all the time. They thought justice was sometimes the head on a pike at the city gates. I think for Trump that would be correct - and minimal.

Thought you'd get a kick out of this from six years ago...

I still hope Trump wins the nomination because he will almost definitely lose the election, and also because he is honestly expressing the views of a large proportion of Republican voters. So, it will be a straightforward rejection of those rather than have them sneak through in the more subtle guise of some empty suit like Marco Rubio. — Baden

To quote Rick Perry: Oops!. :lol:

:mask:

In NYC the Manhattan DA Cyrus Vance, Jr's office is about to criminally indict the Trump Organization itself and maybe employees as soon as this evening or tomorrow afternoon for tax fraud, etc. — 180Proof

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/30/trump-organization-and-its-cfo-indicted-by-manhattan-grand-jury-report-says.html

update ...

LOCK. THEM. UP.

https://apnews.com/article/trump-organization-investigation-charges-8b2deb72f74ef13e0d45a69ee7118261

So it begins... Very exciting!

Trump Org CFO Allan Weisselberg FROG-MARCHED into the arraignment this morning and formally charged with 15 counts of ...

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/01/nyregion/allen-weisselberg-charged-trump-organization.html