Not all Psychopaths are serial killers
  • SteveMinjares
    89
    Can having Psychopathic tendencies be a positive trait for success?

    I hate to word it this way but maybe psychopathic behavior got a bad rap. I won’t dismiss the obvious flaws of being such a person for example dishonesty, callousness, guiltlessness and only looking out for number one. The ability to manipulate and use people for there own personal gain without remorse.

    The lack of empathetic consciousness has its advantages take for example the trolley scenario.

    “Imagine that an out-of-control trolley is speeding towards a group of five people. You are standing on a footbridge above, next to a large man. If you push him off the bridge onto the track below, his body will stop the trolley before it hits the five people. He will die, but the five others will be saved. Should you push the man off the bridge?” - (Everett)

    The choice is easy for a Psychopath push the fat man off the bridge and he would do it without hesitation. Not because he enjoys it or has any emotional motive to do so. Is purely cold and calculated logic. And if he does it right he can probably convince you to throw him a parade for being a hero.

    I know this is a bad example since I said not all Psychopaths are serial killers but just bare with me a little longer.

    The kind of Psychopaths a I am referring to are people like “politics, business, law enforcement, firefighting, special ops service men and high-risk professions” even people who work in Wall Street.

    If you think about it this trait is necessary to cut your emotions out to become more analytical and tactical. Especially if you are dealing with high stakes maybe even life or death scenarios.

    Helping you become more logical by omitting the emotional aspect of your thinking. As disturbing as it sound morality is deeply connected to our emotional psyche. It can cause psychological scaring to a normal individual who has to make that hard decisions.

    But through emotional disciplining you can possibly learn to turn off that internal switch.

    Now don’t get me wrong not trying to glamorize Psychopathic tendencies but I am trying to dissect it and keep the positive traits. Like learning how to deal with high pressure situations and how to make hard decisions that can make anyone crack under pressure.

    By understanding this and I don’t mean in a dark manipulative way but by learning to stay cool under pressure, analyze the situation and take the correct course of action without being emotional invested in your thought process. And to understand the action you are taking is to achieve a desired result or to accomplish a goal in mind.

    So can Psychopathic characteristic be a virtual and a key to success in the career world?

    This thought was inspired by the following articles and movies

    The movie “Waffle Street” and the “Wolf of Wall Street”

    “Not all psychopaths are criminals – some psychopathic traits are actually linked to success” -
    Scott O. Lilienfeld, Ashley Watts, Emory University

    https://theconversation.com/not-all-psychopaths-are-criminals-some-psychopathic-traits-are-actually-linked-to-success-51282


    “Greater good vs the fat man: A popular moral dilemma can tell you whether you’re likable“ - By Jim A.C. Everett PhD candidate, University of Oxford

    https://qz.com/662642/greater-good-vs-the-fat-man-a-popular-moral-dilemma-can-tell-you-whether-youre-likable/

    “Is the Joker a Psychopath?
    Diagnosing an iconic comic villain.” - Scott A. Bonn Ph.D.

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/wicked-deeds/201911/is-the-joker-psychopath
    (I know but I’m a kid at heart and I like Batman)
    SteveMinjares Options
  • Protagoras
    331
    @SteveMinjares
    Television has glamourised the so called psychopath and mythology has told us they feel no emotions.

    This is pure fairytale. These people feel fear,in fact more than other people because they know that they have the potential to be caught.

    What they are good at it projecting a dramatic scary persona and being greedy and manipulative.

    Eventually with the right gang or circumstances they can be ruthless.

    Yes,they really get things done in groups. Because in groups they are good at evading responsibility,manipulating and blaming others.

    The majority of politicians and big businessmen are like this.

    These people are "successful" through manipulating fear.

    I've met them,and worked in psychiatric wards,so know from experience.

    If you want an example of psychos observe hilary Clinton and trump in their behaviours and lies and watch them gloat over peoples misfortune,bully and boast.
    Narcissism,bullying and psychopathy are the same.
    Protagoras Options
  • Protagoras
    331
    @SteveMinjares
    One can become better under pressure by meditation and sports. Competitive but fair endeavours.
    Protagoras Options
  • Tom Storm
    9.2k
    So can Psychopathic characteristic be a virtual and a key to success in the career world? — SteveMinjares

    I think this is very old news. It has long been held that a person high in narcissism and devoid of conscience and concern for others will do better in any competitive area, from the entertainment business to politics (although politics is show business for ugly people).

    Kevin Dutton's book The Wisdom of Psychopaths is a best selling book based on the ideas in your thread.

    Psychopathy is more often known these days as antisocial personality disorder, I am fairly certain that people only present like this if they have experienced abuse of some kind. It's a post trauma state. I've met many people with this diagnosis over 30 years working in mental health and drug services and the criminal justice system.

    The non-violent versions do very well if they are also intelligent and skilled and have some charm. Just being cold and ruthless is not enough, no matter what the media says.

    There are people who have no empathy and have a limited capacity to feel fear. It is often argued that they can do well medicine, law and business. I think this is largely accurate.
    Tom Storm Options
  • baker
    5.6k
    Psychopathy is more often known these days as antisocial personality disorder, I am fairly certain that people only present like this if they have experienced abuse of some kind. It's a post trauma state. — Tom Storm

    But why? If they are successful in their career and happy, how can this possibly be classified as ill mental health?
    baker Options
  • Tom Storm
    9.2k
    ↪baker
    Why what? Who says they are happy?
    Tom Storm Options
  • baker
    5.6k
    Why what? — Tom Storm
    Why is psychopathy classified under mental illness, when it helps people to be successful in their careers and life in general?

    Who says they are happy?
    Oh, come on. Just look at that smug satisfaction! That self-confident contempt! If that isn't happiness (for adults), then what is??!

    If they can't defeat others, sure, then they might feel something like unhappiness (or is it righteous indignation after all?). But is it then psychotherapy's goal to help them to defeat others, so that the psychopath can feel happy?
    baker Options
  • baker
    5.6k
    Who says they are happy? — Tom Storm
    I'd prefer to give real examples, but it's not suitable in this case.
    baker Options
  • Tom Storm
    9.2k
    Why is psychopathy classified under mental illness, when it helps people to be successful in their careers and life in general? — baker

    The matter of what success really is lies at the heart of this. You really need to ask an expert to get a proper answer, but one factor will be that in many cases the rest of their life will look like a wrecking yard.

    Oh, come on. Just look at that smug satisfaction! That self-confident contempt! If that isn't happiness (for adults), then what is??! — baker

    You sound bitter. I won't ask who you are thinking of. I'll bet you there's self loathing, poor interpersonal relationships, loneliness and substance abuse, just for starters. There almost always is.
    Tom Storm Options
  • Tobias
    1k
    Well, I reckon psychopathic behaviour can on an individual level bring a lot of success. Civil society is a bit of a collective action problem after all. We all play our parts an the person that is able to play by the rules when it suits them and not when it suits them better, has a comparative advantage. Dutch criminologist Frank Bovenkerk, a respected Dutch criminologist reckons that the same traits which make a good mafia boss also make a good CEO. Here is the lonk to the article, it is behind a pay wall though, you if you are from an institution that has access it is readable otherwise you have to live by the abstract...
    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1008381201279
    Tobias Options
  • Kenosha Kid
    3.2k
    ↪SteveMinjares
    Regarding your title, the criminal definition of a psychopath is not the same as the medical definition (here in the UK anyway) referred to in
    ↪Tom Storm
    's excellent post. So it shouldn't be a surprise that not all psychopaths are serial killers: old news, as Tom said.

    There are certain professions in which being a psychopath is beneficial. Generals in the military and medical surgeons count a surprisingly high number of psychopaths among their ranks and are roles that appear to benefit others, not just themselves.

    Politicians and CEOs are more troubling, because these psychopaths also create the conditions in which psychopathic traits are advantageous. It isn't obviously beneficial to have a CEO or politician lack empathy unless business and politics are modelled around ruthlessness, narcissism and overt hypocrisy, which in turn are not obviously beneficial to consumers, employees and voters. However, a great many consumers, employees and voters do admire psychopaths who succeed in these ruthless, corrupt frameworks they help create and maintain. This is how we end up with polarised electorates for instance, half of which admire psychopaths who don't pay their taxes, break the law, and rim murderous tyrants at every opportunity (your Trumps and Farages).

    It's also insufficient to point at successes in the psychopath community. How many fail because they simply can't work with others?
    Kenosha Kid Options
  • SteveMinjares
    89
    It's also insufficient to point at successes in the psychopath community. How many fail because they simply can't work with others? — Kenosha Kid

    I feel you are generalizing the behavior on extreme cases. Where I was trying to point out situation that seem more reasonable and in a mild degree.

    Like a good example is if a CEO has to lay off 20,000 employees so the company can survive due to poor sale revenue. And having to dismiss the fact that your decision could affect 20,000 families and there financial stability. Maybe contributing to the unemployment rate.

    And this example show that if you find yourself in a loose-loose situation and you have to choose the lesser of the two evils scenario. Psychopathic thinking in a rational, less extreme and non-dysfunctional sense can make the decision easier to rationalize. Especially if you take in to consideration the emotional distress that comes with these type of decisions.
    SteveMinjares Options
  • Tzeentch
    3.8k
    I cannot imagine success that is devoid of love and empathy.
    Tzeentch Options
  • Tom Storm
    9.2k
    Psychopathic thinking in a rational, less extreme and non-dysfunctional sense can make the decision easier to rationalize. Especially if you take in to consideration the emotional distress that comes with these type of decisions. — SteveMinjares

    I guess you need to ask if an anti-social personality also presents as a high risk individual for taking chances and making mistakes (extreme decisions) based on an inability to empathise. A leader with no empathy is in many cases not a good thing even if it is not unusual. It might even be argued we need fewer people like this in important roles which effect people's lives, not more.
    Tom Storm Options
  • Kenosha Kid
    3.2k
    I feel you are generalizing the behavior on extreme cases. Where I was trying to point out situation that seem more reasonable and in a mild degree. — SteveMinjares

    That was literally the opposite of the meaning in the part you quoted. The OP is generalising from successful psychopaths. I'm just saying there's a lot of unsuccessful psychopaths.

    Like a good example is if a CEO has to lay off 20,000 employees so the company can survive due to poor sale revenue. And having to dismiss the fact that your decision could affect 20,000 families and there financial stability. Maybe contributing to the unemployment rate.

    And this example show that if you find yourself in a loose-loose situation and you have to choose the lesser of the two evils scenario. Psychopathic thinking in a rational, less extreme and non-dysfunctional sense can make the decision easier to rationalize. Especially if you take in to consideration the emotional distress that comes with these type of decisions.     — SteveMinjares

    It might be better if the company got a capable CEO. In reality, mass lay-offs like this tend to be attempts to sell the long-term future of the company for short-term increases in stock prices. It's psychopathic, but rarely beneficial.

    But your example is already measuring benefit in terms of the unlevel playing field built by the powerful for the benefit of the powerful. We might not be in that situation if we avoided the feedback loop between the cultures that high- functioning psychopaths make and the high-functioning psychopaths these cultures make. Industry, economy, capitalism and politics are already contributing to the problem.
    Kenosha Kid Options
  • T Clark
    13.9k
    If they are successful in their career and happy, how can this possibly be classified as ill mental health? — baker

    I was successful in my career and I've lived a good, if not always happy, life. I was also diagnosed with a mental illness - bipolar disorder. Having a mental illness doesn't make you less human and doesn't necessarily take away a desire for happiness. It also doesn't mean you aren't responsible for your actions in the same way anyone else is.
    T Clark Options
  • Tom Storm
    9.2k
    ↪T Clark
    :up:
    Tom Storm Options
  • Manuel
    4.2k
    ↪SteveMinjares


    I mean sure. I forgot where I read or saw this, but someone pointed out that professional athletes happen to be people who are supped obsessed on one single thing. If they weren't obsessed on sports, they'd be obsessed with something else, sometimes leading to dangerous behavior.

    The problem with terms like "psychopath", "schizophrenic" and the like, is that they really do cover a vast range of cases, to the point that these terms can be misleading. It's just that not much is understood about any of this, human beings are too complex. If a psychopath happens to be a soldier, he may do brave things in a war.

    If a schizophrenic is not totally dysfunctional, they can be fantastic artists. And so on.
    Manuel Options
  • BC
    13.6k
    ↪SteveMinjares
    Psychopathic traits, limited enough to allow for normal function in society, enable persons--like high-level managers--to make decisions that make good sense for the company, like laying off 3000 employees on Christmas Eve to meet year-end targets.

    People with normal personalities would find this sort of decision extremely difficult or impossible to make.

    Psychopathic traits are, in general, undesirable. Only if you think the company's year end profit picture is more important that the lives of 3000 employees could one find it a virtue. Some people do...

    The ability to act without crippling guilt can be helpful and healthier. It might be better for everybody concerned if a someone has a brief and inconsequential hookup with someone at a convention, without being tied up in knots of guilt. An inconsequential affair might kill off the primary relationship if it were confessed. One doesn't have to be a psychopath to let what happened in Las Vegas STAY in Las Vegas. One does have to have some moral flexibility, however.
    BC Options
  • Tom Storm
    9.2k
    If a schizophrenic is not totally dysfunctional, they can be fantastic artists. And so on. — Manuel

    Just take care not to confuse outward success with what it is like to be someone. Many a successful person with a mental health issue was terrifically unhappy and some famous ones committed suicide regardless, of genius and acclaim.

    If they weren't obsessed on sports, they'd be obsessed with something else, sometimes leading to dangerous behavior. — Manuel

    Yep, this is our old friend sublimation. Just hope people are channeling their obsessions into a redeemable activity.
    Tom Storm Options
  • Manuel
    4.2k
    Just take care not to confuse outward success with what it is like to be someone. Many a successful person with a mental health issue was terrifically unhappy and some famous ones committed suicide regardless, of genius and acclaim. — Tom Storm

    Of course. It's a curious aspect in artists this relationship with mental illness of some kind. Some can manage it better than others. But it not pleasant in any way, I'd assume. External success is meaningless if you're miserable.
    Manuel Options
  • Tom Storm
    9.2k
    ↪Manuel
    Mental illnesses can manifest quite differently in each person. It may not be that some can manage it better - it is also about what level of intensity the illness comes with, what symptoms you get, your childhood stability, your personal qualities, plus the individual's environment. Without a supportive family or friendship network, it can be especially hard.
    Tom Storm Options
  • Manuel
    4.2k
    ↪Tom Storm


    Oh yeah. I have generalized anxiety disorder and mild depression, so I'm quite aware of how tough it can be and all the many factors involved. Obviously not everybody that has an illness need have an "artistic trait".

    There's also the issue that nowadays in general, we are much more open as a society all over the world, to speak about these things. Not long ago saying you visited a psychologist was akin to admitting you were insane.

    It could actually be the case that everybody has some shade of mental illness, it's just part of being a person. I would not be surprised. I guess "mental illness" is not the best name after all.

    As for psychopathology, it carries the connotation of serial killers or things of that nature. But clearly that can't be true of most of them.
    Manuel Options
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    Not all Psychopaths are serial killers. — SteveMinjares

    What if all serial killers are psychopaths?

    I've always wondered which is more insulting, all men are fools or all fools are men? In the former case, you can't be a man and smart! In the latter case, you can. Hmmm...I suppose all men are fools is gonna hurt more than all fools are men. Let's try this analysis on the issue at hand,

    1. All psychopaths are serial killers.

    2. All serial killers are psychopaths.

    If 1, there's absolutely no hope for a psychopath who'll eventually become, at one point, a serial killer. If 2, things don't look so bad, a psychopath needn't become a serial killer.

    So, yeah, not all psychopaths are killers sounds as good as it was meant to. :smile:

    I spent over 2 hours mulling over this and all I could muster is, psychopathy is the scientific (assuming psychology is considered on) term for evil. It squares with what I said,

    3. (Not) All evil people are serial killers

    but,

    4. All serial killers are evil people

    I
    TheMadFool Options
  • Tom Storm
    9.2k
    I guess "mental illness" is not the best name after all. — Manuel

    Generally it's called an illness if it is causing significant distress or functional impairment or the person is a danger to self or others. Being 'mad' is not enough.
    Tom Storm Options
  • Banno
    25.2k
    By way of reiterating Tom's posts, psychiatry calls it antisocial personality disorder. Sure, they are not all serial killers, but the traits they exhibit are antisocial and immoral:

    • Regularly breaks or flouts the law
    • Constantly lies and deceives others
    • Is impulsive and doesn’t plan ahead
    • Can be prone to fighting and aggressiveness
    • Has little regard for the safety of others
    • Irresponsible, can’t meet financial obligations
    • Doesn’t feel remorse or guilt

    They damage those around them,
    ↪baker
    .
    Banno Options
  • SteveMinjares
    89
    To further explained why I post this question, I do wonder if we all don’t have a certain degree of psychopathic tendencies but what separates us from the real psychopaths is our ability of having self control and moral code.

    Take for example the holocaust and how one man convinced a nation is ok to commit mass genocid. It kind of makes you ask these difficult questions. Do we only label this behavior as evil based on what societies approves?

    Evil acts should be pretty obvious. But when put in a desperate situation or in the heat of a angry mob it becomes easy to forget the moral codes we preach to ourselves. And that line we swear we won’t cross becomes very grey and faded.

    So what is the difference between an individual psychopath and entire nation allowing mass murder to happen in there backyard.

    My assessment is what society deems as tolerable behavior.

    To put in a metaphor “if a monster is protecting the city gates from the enemy than it is okay to have this monster around. As long as it doesn’t turn on us and we continue to benefit from its existence”

    As long as there is enough people around to tell you is okay to do it. You might find yourself in that monsters shoes.

    The only difference between the individual and society is a psychopath doesn’t care for societies approval. Where a normal person needs validation and approval from the masses to commit the act.
    SteveMinjares Options
  • Isaac
    10.3k
    ↪SteveMinjares


    Well the premise is wrong for a start.

    https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/0146167217733080
    Isaac Options
  • baker
    5.6k
    They damage those around them, ↪baker. — Banno

    So what? They get away with it! And society at large loves them, at least secretly!

    People admire aggressive drivers, for example. And generally, people blame the victim or at least the one who is worse off. People love winners.
    baker Options
  • baker
    5.6k
    ↪T Clark
    Read again what I said.
    baker Options
  • Banno
    25.2k
    ↪baker
    See the article Isaac linked to.
    ↪Isaac
    Banno Options
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