What's the difference between "having" and "showing"? How can you show something you don't have?Last point, to return to the relation between meaning and words. If words don't have meaning, but can nonetheless express meaning, this puts us very close to the Wittgenstein of the TLP. For Wittgenstein, what he calls 'propositions' do not so much as have meaning, as they show it: "A proposition shows its sense" (TLP 4.022). — StreetlightX
In his essay "The Task of the Translator", Walter Benjamin makes a fascinating distinction between what a word means, and how a word means. — StreetlightX
For Benjamin, the differences between languages are, at base, differences between how words mean. That is, what any one expression means can remain identical between languages, but what differs between them is 'how' a particular language goes about "meaning" (taken as a verb). — StreetlightX
if we take language as a way of meaning, rather than as that which 'has' meaning. Wittgenstein himself says as much: "What expresses itself in language, we cannot express by means of language" (4.121): sense or meaning is always anterior to language, even as it is expressed 'in' it. Hence the famous mutual exclusivity of 'showing' and 'saying': "What can be shown, cannot be said" — StreetlightX
But if language itself is a way of meaning, then languages - in the plural - are similarly varying ways of meaning. — StreetlightX
For Benjamin, the differences between languages are, at base, differences between how words mean. That is, what any one expression means can remain identical between languages, but what differs between them is 'how' a particular language goes about "meaning" (taken as a verb).
— StreetlightX
I'm not sure if I agree with this. — T Clark
Then it would be inaccurate to translate the literal meaning of the idiom to another language. It would be more accurate to translate the meaning of the idiom to another language. Just because there isn't another way to say the same thing in another language doesn't mean that the meaning can't be translated to another language. After all what the scribbles point to is more important than the scribbles used.For example the English idiom bread and butter ('a person's livelihood or main source of income'; or
used in reference to something everyday or ordinary) doesn't automatically translate into the German Brot und Butter, for German has no such idiom with this meaning. — baker
"In the words Brot and pain, what is meant is the same, but the way of meaning it is not. This difference in the way of meaning permits the word Brot to mean something other to a German than what the word pain means to a Frenchman, so that these words are not interchangeable for them; in fact, they strive to exclude each other. As to what is meant, however, the two words signify the very same thing".(Readers note: Brot in German and pain in French mean "bread" in English - this is not talking about 'pain' as in 'ow it hurts' pain). — StreetlightX
Also, this sounds more like meaning as use rather than the picture theory, so I'm curious why you compared it to the picture theory instead. — Luke
I may have missed something, but if Brot and pain both signify bread, then I don't follow why "these words are not interchangeable for them" or how they "strive to exclude each other". — Luke
Yeah, it wouldn't be wrong to see this as another angle of attack with respect to meaning as use. — StreetlightX
‘The Task of the Translator' central theme is the relation between the original and a copy, or the origin and its outcome. Benjamin asserts that the connection between any two languages is primarily based on 'the ideal pre-language' (the origin). Later, he reconsidered this approach. In 'The Work of aAt in the Age of Mechanical Reproduction’, there is no origin anymore. Since 'the aura as the unique phenomenon of a distance' has been completely lost, the origin appears deceptive and illusory. Therefore, Benjamin started rethinking the relation between seeable and sayable (meaning and words).For Benjamin, the differences between languages are, at base, differences between how words mean — StreetlightX
Importantly though, I'm expressly not comparing it to the picture theory. For as I read it, the picture theory can be jettisoned while still retaining the distinction between saying and showing that is at work in the TLP. For instance, take 4.022: "A proposition shows its sense. A proposition shows how things stand if it is true. And it says that they do so stand." I think the first sentence of this is exactly correct, while I think the second sentence - which sets a constraint upon what 'sense' is - is exactly wrong. Moreover, I think the PI is a recognition of exactly this, and that it too is a working out of what it means to jettison the picture theory while maintaining the saying/showing distinction. — StreetlightX
While all individual elements of foreign languages - words, sentences, structure - are mutually exclusive, these languages supplement one another in their intentions. Without distinguishing the intended object from the mode of intention, no firm grasp of this basic law of a philosophy of language can be achieved. The words Brot and pain “intend” the same object, but the modes of this intention are not the same. It is owing to these modes that the word Brot means something different to a German than the word pain to a Frenchman, that these words are not interchangeable for them, that, in fact, they strive to exclude each other. As to the intended object, however, the two words mean the very same thing. While the modes of intention in these two words are in conflict, intention and object of intention complement each of the two languages from which they are derived; there the object is complementary to the intention. — Walter Benjamin
If a proposition is static symbols on a page, then how is that different than a picture on a page? Observing someone use the word is also remembered visually and reproduced from the visual memory. So I don't get this distinction between use and pictures, or between having and showing. The fact is that if the thing/event you want to talk about is right in front of you, then there is no need for words. Think about watching a ball game and the sports announcer is telling the play-by-play. Is the announcer showing you anything that you can't see with your eyes? Maybe it's useful for first time viewers that don't know the rules if the game, but for veterans, it's just redundant information.That is, a proposition is just a static bunch of symbols on a page. Wittgenstein is incorrect in the Tractatus to say "I understand the proposition without having its sense explained to me" (4.021). This reminds me of the moral of the story of PI's opening quote. Obviously, we must be taught how to use and understand language, including propositions. — Luke
If a proposition is static symbols on a page, then how is that different than a picture on a page? — Harry Hindu
Observing someone use the word is also remembered visually and reproduced from the visual memory. — Harry Hindu
Think about watching a ball game — Harry Hindu
This is best illustrated by and explained with examples, but for this, all the participants need to be fluent enough in the languages compared. It's a phenomenon that multilingual people can easily understand, but otherwise, it's tedious to explain.I'm still unclear on this. Are the different ways of meaning simply different attitudes by the speakers of different languages toward the words/meanings of their respective languages? Or a different attitude towards the signified objects? Or something else? — Luke
Except for machines, which only have access to words, but do a fairly good job of translating these days. — Marchesk
I wonder about this one too. We'd need someone who is fluent in French. I know Germans tend to associate Brot with hard work and basic necessities (which is evident in the German idioms with Brot), but do the French do so as well?That part of the quote kinda puzzles me too, but I think he just means that you're not likely to code switch from French to German and vice versa while speaking about bread. I think anyway. — StreetlightX
German bread is usually made from the darker, less refined types of flour, often even wholegrain. Beside the wheat flour the rye flour is often added to the dough. There are also pure rye kinds of bread. Typical French bread is usually yeast raised, while German is sourdough. In consequence German bread is darker, has more flavour, it is also longer edible. In France bread is usually eaten as the add-on with meals, broken to pieces while eaten. In Germany it is more often a base of a meal, cut into slices and made into open-face sandwiches.
https://www.quora.com/Is-there-any-difference-between-French-bread-and-German-bread
This is best illustrated by and explained with examples, but for this, all the participants need to be fluent enough in the languages compared. It's a phenomenon that multilingual people can easily understand, but otherwise, it's tedious to explain. — baker
Except for machines, which only have access to words, but do a fairly good job of translating these days. — Marchesk
It's actually much simpler than this. Words in different languages can be translated only because they point to the same thing. If they don't point to the same thing, then they are not translatable. The fact is that most, of not all, words in any language are translatable in another. It just may be that one word in one language translates to many words in a another language, but this is no different than defining the single word in the first language, as the act of defining is translating one word into many in the same language, or at least pointing at the object or event you are defining.This is best illustrated by and explained with examples, but for this, all the participants need to be fluent enough in the languages compared. It's a phenomenon that multilingual people can easily understand, but otherwise, it's tedious to explain.
But the point is that word X in one language translates as word Y in.. — baker
Of course. I had actually compiled a reply to an earlier post of yours here, but lost it in editing. I used the English word mother and how in English it has meanings that the word mati in my Slavic native language doesn't have, even though they generally count as equivalents.It's actually much simpler than this. Words in different languages can be translated only because they point to the same thing. If they don't point to the same thing, then they are not translatable. The fact is that most, of not all, words in any language are translatable in another. It just may be that one word in one language translates to many words in a another language, but this is no different than defining the single word in the first language, as the act of defining is translating one word into many in the same language, or at least pointing at the object or event you are defining. — Harry Hindu
It's not clear that they could make sense of the object per se. Perhaps if I pointed to a Christmas Tree and said something like "This is how we on Earth symbolize a specific and important religious holiday."Think of how you would translate/define "Christmas Tree" to an alien from another planet that doesn't have trees or Christmas, but has religions, holidays and bushes, and words in their own language that point to these things. What if you just pointed at a Christmas Tree?
You might consider it tedious to explain, but that the same expression in different languages can somehow mean (or "how it means") differently - as opposed to the traditional way of meaning - is supposed to be the topic of the discussion. If "how it means" cannot be explicated, then what are we discussing? And what are further examples meant to show? It doesn't help that the example cited in the OP is puzzling to all. — Luke
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