I think that Gnostism is an interesting part of the debate. But, while there is serious debate, I think that we need to keep a certain amount of humour. On one of the threads of yours, which Baden said had turned into a circus, I thought that there was a funny side. Reading your discussion with various people was like the verses and Tim's as the chorus. But, I don't know if anyone else sees the funny side. But, we will see what happens on the magic bus next, because I think that philosophy is meant to be part fun as well as heavy exploration.

I think that could be a song for the end of todays journeying!

I agree, conversely, some Athiest's here are not able to escape their emotional angst, hence:

Ever wonder why Atheists like to troll Religious threads? The irony seems to be, that which should have no concern or existence, seemingly weighs heavily on one's consciousness :razz:

It makes me wonder about internet exchange because I know atheists and religious people who can spend time interacting. But, I will try to put in an entry tomorrow on Gnostic ideas, but I don't know if the bus will ride safely if everyone is in such heated conflict. We will wait and see, now that we have passed highway 13, and hope that we don't enter into apocalypse and post-apocalyptic wilderness.

In the paraphrased words of the sages from the Wisdom Books/The Book of Ecclesiastes (since this thread is about Bible philosophy and ironically the existential angst rearing its head) : The vanity of vanities. This too is nothing new under the sun.

Meds, lil troll, meds are your friends.

Well, I'm a haint hoboing along Highway 61 with old hellhounds on my trail ... :fire:

The Mississippi Delta
was shining like
a National guitar
I am following the river
Down the highway
Through the cradle of the civil war

:cool:

Hahaha! I tried your 180 proof medication, but that only led to more existential angst :razz:

Put in a quarter and try again my friend :joke:

I logged out once, but I am back. Obviously, you don't have to join the bus but I do try to see the lighter side of it all. I have my dark moments but I try to not take it too seriously, or myself too seriously, even if I do have my trippy 'psychonaut' days. As far as I can see we need some Doors' songs playing in the background for our journey, and theists and atheists all welcome aboard. I have a rather surreal sense of humour and, of course, I am a bit of a dreamer.

Goodnight to you and everyone else!

The Book of Revelation — Jack Cummins

PDF:

https://austintorney.files.wordpress.com/2021/07/book-of-revelation-150-dpi.pdf

Thanks for the link and I will look at it tomorrow.

As previously stated, paradise being the ultimate goal of Christian religion and philosophy, it may be useful to see how beliefs about paradise can be analyzed in philosophical terms.

Questions about human life in paradise that span the spectrum of the major subfields of philosophical inquiry, include:

Will human persons in paradise be infallible or omniscient?
Which virtues might they possess, and will they grow in their possession of virtue?
What does justice require regarding who inhabits paradise?
How can bodily resurrection be secured?
What sort of free will might inhabitants of paradise possess?
Would the life of paradise be good or desirable?

Paradise Understood: New Philosophical Essays about Life in Heaven

But I would say that traditional descriptions of paradise also need to be taken into account.

The ancient Egyptians believed that the soul resides in the heart and so, upon death, each human heart is weighed on a giant scale against Righteousness (Maat, represented by an ostrich feather). The righteous souls who balance the scales are allowed to proceed on the journey to the Field of Reeds, where they will enjoy a happy existence for all eternity. Souls burdened by evil tip and fall into the jaws of death (represented by a crocodile-like demon), after which they are doomed to a restless life in the underworld. Paradise was usually located in the east where the Sun rises and described as boundless reed fields, like those of the earthly Nile Delta, or a series of islands covered in fields of rushes.

Aaru - Wikipedia

Greek religion had a rather similar conception of paradise, with a judgement taking place after death, following which righteous souls enjoyed a happy existence in paradise whereas the unrighteous were condemned to a shadowy life in the underworld. Interestingly, the Greek paradise was located in the Elysian Fields or Isles of the Blessed in the western ocean at the edge of the world, i.e., where the sun sets, not in the east where the sun rises as in Egyptian tradition.

In any case, the Greek paradise is described as a place abounding in shady trees watered by pure streams, where the blessed enjoyed musical and other pleasant pastimes. The Greek word πᾰρᾰ́δεισος paradeisos which was used in the Greek version of the OT for the Garden of Eden, is of Persian origin and referred to a green park or pleasure-ground as those maintained by Persian kings.

So, the Greek paradise seems to be a blend of several traditions, and the same seems to apply to paradise in the Jewish tradition according to which the righteous will be seated at golden tables and take part in food, drink, and other enjoyments (Babylonian Talmud, Ta’anith 25a, Kethuboth 77b, Berakoth 57b).

The Islamic paradise seems to follow the same pattern and, interestingly, the Koran in addition to Arabic janna also uses the term فِرْدَوْس firdaws which is the same as Greek paradeisos but apparently is borrowed directly from Persian, which again, suggests a blend of traditions that were dominant in the Mid East at the time.

In Christianity, paradise appears to be treated somewhat differently. Jesus says, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43) and NT descriptions of afterlife evoke the image of a wedding feast (parables in Matt 22:2 – 14 and 25:1 – 13). Similar statements include “Blessed is he who shall eat bread in the Kingdom of God” (Luke 14:15) and “Many will come from the east and the west and shall sit down (at table) in the Kingdom of Heaven” (Matthew 8:11).

St Paul is a bit of a spoilsport by appearing to contradict this by stating that “the Kingdom of God is not meat and drink”, and St Augustine (City of God) follows Paul by rejecting the popular view of paradise where souls participate in various forms of enjoyment. Though he refuses to explain his reasons.

My personal feeling is that both Paul and Augustine are hiding something. In the first place, paradise is, by definition, a place of happiness. As suggested by Paul, there is a hierarchy of heavens and this logically implies a hierarchy of happy experiences. This makes it probable that, depending on individual spiritual development and needs, ordinary souls may indulge in ordinary enjoyments such as food and drink, whereas the more evolved ones would engage in more intellectually and spiritually satisfying activities such as philosophizing, singing hymns, meditating, etc.

Of particular interest in my view would be conversing with Angels. (And seeing if Socrates, Plato, and other prominent philosophers are there, too).

Good topic Jack man!

I am totally dumbfounded that pagan Europe fell for this Semetic text (Semetic = middle eastern)! Now you got total knuckle draggers Believen that people of European decent are SONS Of ABRAHAM!! This is the biggest shim sham in the universe.. ancient Europeans acknowledged duality and natural forces. Pagans were not ASHAMED of their sexuality (a gift of nature) and realized man must live WITH NATURE (not “King of it”). Abrahamic religion teaches you to feel GUILTY because you have inborn urges.
I can go on and on. But, in order for humans to make the next big leap in evolution, humans must shed these fake clothes and look at TRUE HISTORY. How can you know your future if you don’t know your (True) past!!!!

@Apollodorus

This is an excellent post.

To add,zarathustra and zorastranism have similiar concepts of monotheism,judgement and paradise.

And some versions of buddhism especially pure land buddhism have a shambolic land of paradise after death.

Would be interesting to hear what hinduism says about these things.

Every culture has an afterlife and paradise narratives.
That's not for nothing!

The best way to read the Christian bible is to see Jesus as the Anti-christ and the whole thousands of years of "God will save us in the future" being the vanity of vanity. Taking it's words sheepishly misses the whole story.

The idea of paradise, or heaven is interesting but I always wondered to what extent the idea makes sense in terms of a place, or as a kingdom within. You may find my own juxtaposition of ideas as being a little bit odd, but I went to Christian groups, in which people were speaking of meals they would have after the resurrection at the end of the world. In contrast, I am familiar with psyche rock music, like that of Roky Erikson and the Thirteen Elevators and the track by The Psychedelic Furs, which says 'heaven is the home of all hearts'. Perhaps, I am drawing out caricatures of the idea of paradise and heaven, but I do feel a bit puzzled as to how much it is an idea to be established on earth, or as a state of mind.

Christian bible — Gregory

My Bible:

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/11248/how-do-we-think-about-the-bible-from-a-philosophical-point-of-view/latest/comment

You don't own the Bible, the Bible owns you if you want to sell yourself to it

You don't own the Bible, the Bible owns you if you want to sell yourself to it — Gregory

The post had a wrong link; here is the right one to the Bible I produced:

https://austintorney.files.wordpress.com/2021/07/bibnew-small-11.25-jpg-150-dpi.pdf

I just opened the links you put, and saw the fantastic artwork. You have said that you do all your art with Photoshop, and don't do any drawing or painting. That is amazing. I have only experimented a little with computer art, preferring do do drawing, but certainly your way has true results, and it does seem that it must come from real inspiration.

So, I recommend anyone who is reading this thread to open PoeticUniverse's links to unveil some wonderful art.

That art is colorful to say the least! It reminds me of some of the dreams I've had in the past

Apart from looking at your art in the link that you provided, I began reading what you have written in the book which you have created. It is a fair amount to read, so I will write a fuller reply in the next couple of days. I hope that others will access your book in the link above, but it may allow for some further discussion. Actually, the thought that this thread had faded about a week ago, so I was rather surprised when it popped up again a couple of days ago. I have also found another book which is relevant for the discussion, which I will read and speak about too.