Does a fetus deserve moral consideration? And when do we give the fetus moral consideration? Better question when do we give anything moral consideration? — Oppyfan
Does a fetus deserve moral consideration? And when do we give the fetus moral consideration? Better question when do we give anything moral consideration? — Oppyfan
Does a fetus deserve moral consideration? And when do we give the fetus moral consideration? Better question when do we give anything moral consideration? — Oppyfan
Why is "unborn baby Conner" a clump of undifferentiated cells for purposes of the abortion debate, yet deserving of a name and thereby his humanity in a murder trial? — fishfry
How do you convict a man of the murder of an undifferentiated clump of cells? — fishfry
If Laci had aborted the fetus, nobody in the San Francisco bay area would have batted an eye. — fishfry
This case always stands out for me as exemplifying the massive hypocrisy of the pro-choice position. — fishfry
But I hope you see my point, and I wonder if some of you philosophers can help me understand why "unborn baby Conner" was even deserving of a name, let alone the status of a murder victim, in a strongly pro-choice state like California. — fishfry
You might say it's the mother's choice, but how can that be? If "unborn baby Conner" has human rights and can be murdered, then surely it's cold comfort to the fetus that it was his mom and not his dad who decided to kill him. — fishfry
I don't "might say." I do say it is the mother's choice. It can be, because it is. It's no comfort, cold or otherwise, to the fetus who happens to kill it (or not). The comfort of the fetus doesn't matter unless the mother says it matters. The mother is the sovereign ruler over all fetus' that reside within her. That is the way it should be. So says me. — James Riley
It's cold comfort to the fetus that it was the mom and not the dad who killed him. But I already said that. — fishfry
your post didn't help answer my question, — fishfry
What is the moral or philosophical principle involved? — fishfry
"Women get special consideration for murder," — fishfry
Are you "my body, my choice" with respect to experimental vaccines? Use of illicit substances? — fishfry
It's not murder if it's legal. Homicide, yes, murder, no. — James Riley
Which is exactly why I used the word murder and not homicide. Are you saying abortion is homicide? — fishfry
I personally believe life begins at conception, if not before. So yes, abortion is homicide. But it's not murder unless we say it is. — James Riley
If the pro-choicers would simply say as you do, that abortion kills a potential human but that it's justified on whatever grounds, that would be logically defensible. — fishfry
I'll go a step further and say it's not a potential human: It's a human. But she can kill it, carte blanche, as far as I'm concerned. — James Riley
I think it is best to give moral consideration to respecting the medical profession's ability to parse the ethical questions they face. Generalizing decisions of life and death when a gray area is present seems immoral.Does a fetus deserve moral consideration? And when do we give the fetus moral consideration? Better question when do we give anything moral consideration? — Oppyfan
Yes, but after 26 weeks (c6 1/2 months) of gestation, not before then.Does a fetus deserve moral consideration? — Oppyfan
As a rule of thumb – if and when dehumanizing, or brutalizing, a suffering (not merely pain-reactive) creature, even to the slightest degree, also dehumanizes, or brutalizes, an agent.Better question when do we give anything moral consideration?
There is no "baby" until after the 26rh week (6 1/2 month) of pregnancy. :roll: — 180 Proof
Then, pro-choicers go on to argue,
5. If the fetus is not a baby then I can do something to the fetus
6. The fetus is not a baby (pro-choicer)
7. I can do something to the fetus (5, 6 MP) — TheMadFool
1. If I do something to the fetus then I do something to the baby. (pro-choicers' key statement, the reason why they want abortion) — TheMadFool
2. If I can't do something to the baby then I can't do something to the fetus (from 1, contrapositive: doing something to the fetus implies doing something to the baby) — TheMadFool
8. I can do something to the fetus and I can't do something to the fetus (4, 7 Conj) [Contradiction: Paradox!] — TheMadFool
Gibberish. Pro-choicers neither make decisions to abort using this method nor give two shits whether or not the decision is formally consistent. They wish to stop their pregancies. Period. These women are moral agents (@ age of consent) and not wards of the state, their husbands or their families. — 180 Proof
Gibberish. Pro-choicers neither make decisions to abort using this method nor give two shits whether or not the decision is formally consistent — 180 Proof
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall. Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day. — 'Ah, so you shall be sure to be misunderstood.' — Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood. — Ralph Waldo Emerson
"Value" to whom – the birds who eat most of the seeds? They're valued in nature as much for food as for germinating. So what? Again, seed are potential saplings and saplings are potential trees; seeds are not potential trees. That's like saying sperm are "potential persons" – then jacking-off is equivalent to mass-murder and swallowing jizz when giving head is cannibalism. :sweat: Better watch that (anachronistic) Aristotleanism ...Yes but the value of a seed lies in its potential (tree), not in itself. — TheMadFool
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