How can faith be anything but the excuse you give for believing when you don't have a good reason? — Tom Storm
When the doubting has exhausted, one will decide either to keep doubting or become an atheist? Reasoning itself alone, will not cause someone to decide or act, but it will be the basis of the decision or action depending on their will. All it can do is, "realising". — Corvus
Do you rule out a rotting pile of spaghetti in another dimension? — Gregory
Some Atheists operate on the basis that harmful ideas harm human beings. All myths of the Enlightenment aside, the reality is right now laws and society all over the world are being changed by religious folk with disproportionate power.
I have no interest in getting into a ceaseless slanging match on this and wish you well. Maybe just be open to considering that atheism is not necessarily the dysfunctional reaction you seem to think it is. And there's no need to call an agnostic stupid if they don't conform to your definition of the term. Feel free to have the last word. :pray: — Tom Storm
I'm not merely concerned with having the last word, either. — Janus
Surly you can countenance my disagreement without imputing bad intent on my part? — Janus
I said agnostics are stupid only if they don't recognize the distinction between faith and knowledge, just as I have said fundamentalist religious believers are stupid for the same reason. I have also acknowledged that it is not stupid to argue against fundamentalism in all its forms (although, it may be a waste of time since such arguments often fall on deaf eras). — Janus
I said agnostics are stupid only if they don't recognize the distinction between faith and knowledge, — Janus
The principle is simple. It is one thing to say you don't know if any kind of deity exists or not. It's another thing entirely (as Hitchens might say) to be neutral on specific claims made regarding a specific deity's views about morality; who you should sleep with and in what position; what country should win the war; what you should eat; what days you can work on; what counts as knowledge, the status of women; etc. Agnosticism doesn't have to make one a eunuch. There is a lot of harmful religious practice (not all of it fundamentalist) that demands a response even from the agnostic. — Tom Storm
The issue is that beliefs cause harm to others. When, for instance Christians seek to change legislation - eg, abortion law, euthanasia, creation science in schools, climate science denial - you name it - and when they are supporting political candidates, they are justifying these high impact changes on the basis of an unproven entity. — Tom Storm
Don't forget that many people conflate faith, belief, and knowledge; they have little or no sense of perspective, subjectivity, or of the dichotomy of facts vs. opinions. (This is also why scientism can flourish among secular people, as witnessed in the covid vaccine hysteria.)Indeed. How can faith be anything but the excuse you give for believing when you don't have a good reason? What can you not justify using an appeal to faith? It seems very weak to me. — Tom Storm
That's because you're not pugilistic enough. The idea of God has proven to be a very effective tool for fucking with people's minds, and thus render them silent, incompetent, or irrelevant.I still can't quite understand what the idea of god is for except as a debating subject.
The counter is that for practical purposes agnosticism and atheism have the same outcome.
— Banno
Not true; an agnostic is not going to waste time arguing against theists. — Janus
But you're not a theist in any actual, established religious sense of the word. You couldn't go to a particular church, join the religious community there, and function well as a member, could you?I had absolutely zero religious training and I'm not even slightly inclined to atheism. My sense of incredulity at the magnificent complexity of the universe only reduces that further. — Pantagruel
Oh? And this means that they should first seek psychiatric help, and once they are cured of their trauma, only then proceed with their religious explorations?I think the Atheist has specific reasons for disbelieving in god. Probably some deep psychological trauma where they feel they were let down and abandoned. — Pantagruel
They become tedious, as I fear this is becoming. — Tom Storm
I said agnostics are stupid only if they don't recognize the distinction between faith and knowledge, — Janus
Partly yes. But you said they were pretty stupid for arguing against Christianity/Islam - a response to my comment. Agnostics I've known are often very critical of the truth claims and practices of religions. — Tom Storm
Not from what I've seen. At least on internet forums, I've seen plenty of aggressive agnostics trying to fight it out both with theists as well as atheists. — baker
The religious have here an ace that the non-religious don't have. If you oppose what they say, they can accuse you of denying them their constitutional freedom of religion. This is how they can silence you, which was their goal all along. — baker
Not from what I've seen. At least on internet forums, I've seen plenty of aggressive agnostics trying to fight it out both with theists as well as atheists. — baker
I think most things should remain in doubt. I feel 99.999999999999% confident that no intelligent deity created mankind or the universe (but 100% confident that the previous percentage I wrote was just made up). This is good enough for action. Action is predicated on certainty: confidence is sufficient. — Kenosha Kid
Agnosticism? It's lazy, even stupid.
Theist: "I suck on a cosmic lollipop."
Atheist: "I don't suck on a cosmic lollipop (maybe because cosmic lollipops are imaginary)."
Agnostic: "I don't know whether I suck or I don't suck on a (real? imaginary?) cosmic lollipop." — 180 Proof
Yep. This is a key point. Agnosticism is not necessarily a neutral position - it can be just as combative and critical of religion and god beliefs, not to mention atheism. And atheists are far from harmonious with each other. — Tom Storm
Ignorance, actions and attitudes maybe, but not beliefs. — Possibility
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