The left claims to be tolerant, but only for things which respect their fundamental values; towards anything else, absolutely intolerant. — Agustino
Everyone has their own laws on their lands, in their families, and true toleration means not interfering with these. — Agustino
I think this a massively sweeping claim. The left presumably believes these fundamental values are intrinsic rights to every human being. So of course they are going to be intolerant to the right and others who dismiss many of these values. They are intolerant of intolerance, intolerant of backwards thinking. — darthbarracuda
This is a funny thing to say, considering you said you are leaning to the right (which has history of rolling tanks into countries that don't necessarily want them). — darthbarracuda
True, not all leftists would be like this. However, I disagree that these are fundamental values and intrinsic rights. Who are they to claim so? As far as I'm concerned, the only rights a man has by birth are the same rights a tiger has - which are not many. It is society which grants man any other rights that he has, and man owes it to his community for having them. Thus it is man's duty to support his community which has provided for him while he couldn't provide for himself - and it is also his duty to remember that if it wasn't for his community he'd be in no better or worse state than a tiger is. — Agustino
However, I disagree that these are fundamental values and intrinsic rights. — Agustino
Who are you to claim so? — darthbarracuda
There isn't any such thing, except as we decide there are intrinsic rights. My opinion is that deciding there are makes for a better world for everyone in it, so we might as well act like there is such a thing. — Marchesk
Who are you to claim so? — darthbarracuda
If we don't, then we have an over-class of folks who take advantage of those who are below them -- and I don't blame them, of course, because that's only human nature -- but we don't have equality until people in the underclass actually come together and fight. — Moliere
You're not being oppressed just because you end up with a minority opinion that most people dislike. — Marchesk
Well, it's inevitable for some people to be better than others. — Agustino
Better than others in what way, though? Athletically, intellectually, better at making money, better at exploiting and manipulating, being more beautiful, being the right skin color, being born to the right family, etc? How are you going to define the criteria for who is better? — Marchesk
I will be treated as a social outcast, with whom no one wants to be associated with. So therefore, this is necessarily intolerant towards me, since it acts as a way to marginalise me. — Agustino
Better in any of these ways. Not better in absolute terms, since there is no way to decide if the best plumber is better than the best lawyer — Agustino
So you think people should be required to socialize with you even if they can't stand your views? I think people should be free to socialize with whom they want. — Marchesk
As quite a few on the Left have been at pains to point out (all that stuff on Colonialism and Western Imperialism and the damage it caused to so many indigenous peoples, the damage inflicted by modern Western Imperialism and globalisation, etc.,etc.). — TheWillowOfDarkness
But in most societies it's already the case that people can find all sorts of ways to end up better off than others financially, in status quo, or other ways. A free and equal society gives people the most opportunity to do this, whereas more stratified societies tend to put barriers in place for ambitious individuals born to the wrong class, ethnicity, gender or circumstances. — Marchesk
Well, it's inevitable for some people to be better than others. Instead of making everyone equally bad, why not allow those who are better to pull the rest, as much as possible towards where they are? And for those who are worse to have something to aspire to? — Agustino
Better in any of these ways. Not better in absolute terms, since there is no way to decide if the best plumber is better than the best lawyer — Agustino
This is contradiction. When each individual is accepted in terms of their ability, there is no-one to aspire too because that would be to covert what one was not. — TheWillowOfDarkness
It would be for the best plumber to think, in absolute terms, the best lawyer was more valuable because they were the best lawyer rather then the best plumber — TheWillowOfDarkness
If I want to become moderately rich, a "free and equal" society is good. But if I want to become immoderately rich, extremely rich - then such a society places more constraints on me than its opposite. — Agustino
I don't know. Seems like the tech billionaires did alright for themselves. Bill Gates was the richest person in the world for how long? How influential are companies like Google and Facebook? — Marchesk
Nope. Since this plumber is not as good, doing that would be to insist they needed to have more than the abilities they have. It is to give the better plumber more absolute value. The worse plumber is think the MUST, as a person, be a great plumber like the other guy, else they have failed as an individual. If each individual is respected for their own abilities, it must be alright for the worse plumber to be worse. — TheWillowOfDarkness
I will agree with Augistino in one sense. Societies do determine what the fundamental values are. I happen to grow in a society where equality, justice and tolerance are promoted. But I could have grown up in Sparta. So from an absolute point of view, how does anyone say which values are best? That's kind of disturbing. As it stands though, the West has the power and influence to make the world in their image, and so those values are the ones which will win out. I say that's good, but with an understanding that it's my modern Western preference for those particular values. — Marchesk
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