That being the case, when it comes to living in the moment, should I go max out my credit cards? — HardWorker

That is the question of someone who is living in the future. If you were living in the present, you would not be wanting, because wanting is projecting an image of the future (the expensive something that is absent at present) and imagined as provided by the credit card. "Should" is always about the future, and has no place in Zen practice.

After all, that's living in the moment. — HardWorker

Not at all, that's living in the future. It is the disease of the Western mind to try and understand Zen. But the application of reason is a withdrawal from the present - I am typing this exact word. You are reading this ... and then thought moves away from the present into the imaginary world where a credit card has bought you stuff or you have understood the essence of Zen or some other absent world. Your theorising about Zen betrays it, and so does mine.

I guess you've never heard of the Zen Mastercard.

I guess you've never heard of the Zen Mastercard. — praxis

Don't chant "Om" without it.

If we truly lives in the moment, we would experience absolutely nothing. A single experienced moment of time has three parts. It consists of the immediate past that forms a piece of the now, and the present event which occurs into that just past. A single ‘now’ also includes an anticipation into the next moment. If the immediate past were not a part of the now we wouldn’t be able to enjoy something like music, because the current note would have nothing to connect it to the just past note. We could t perceive anything in our world because most of what we see, hear, touch and smell in an instant comes from memory. We would have joys and hopes and pleasure because these are about how the present fulfills the past and points desiringly to the next present. I’m the story about the tiger and the area wberry we are supposed to learn a lesson that we will recall when we find ourselves in a similar situation.

Most people when hearing the story live in the future, they see one of two possible future outcomes, either the man falls or the tiger gets him. But the fact of the matter is, you don't know that. The mice could stop gnawing, the tiger could go away, so you don't know what will happen. — HardWorker

The person following the lesson of the story is also living in the future. He is anticipating that any outcome is possible. He is also making use of the past by recalling the lesson in the situation.

I don’t think inner peace is a matter of living in the moment , since th very idea of the moment is incoherent without its being part of a triadic structure of past-present-future which all occur simultaneously in what we call an instant of time. I think the key to satisfaction is in how harmoniously we anticipate beyond the moment.

The psychologist George Kelly made anticipation the very cornerstone of his psychology. In the following passage , he answers to the claim that the goal should be to live in the moment.

“For example, what about those rare and delectable hours when we can lie in the grass and look up at the fleecy summer clouds? Do we not then take life, savoring each moment as it comes without rudely trying to outguess it? Does one not feel very much alive on such occasions? Certainly! But this, too, is an anticipatory posture. To be sure, it is not the frantic apprehension of popping little events. It is rather a composed anticipation of a slowly drifting universe of great and benign proportions.”

Notice that when many talk about being in the moment , they equate this with being in the ‘flow’, but a flow isn’t about isolated, disconnected moments, it’s about experiencing them as linked to each other in a smooth, harmonious , meaningful way.

All these Koans are interminable and exhausting.

Anyway, my understanding of Zen is very marginal, no doubt there are people on this forum who know much more about Zen than me. That being the case, when it comes to living in the moment, should I go max out my credit cards? — HardWorker

Those few who took the trouble to visit Japan and begin the practice of Zen under a recognized Zen master or who joined the monastic Order soon discovered that it was a very different matter from what the popularizing literature had led them to believe. They found that in the traditional Zen monastery zazen is never divorced from the daily routine of accessory disciplines. To attenuate and finally dissolve the illusion of the individual ego, it is always supplemented by manual work to clean the temple, maintain the garden, and grow food in the grounds; by strenuous study with attendance at discourses on the sutras and commentaries; and by periodical interviews with the roshi, to test spiritual progress. Acolytes are expected to develop indifference to the discomforts of heat and cold on a most frugal vegetarian diet and to abstain from self-indulgence in sleep and sex, intoxicating drinks and addictive drugs. Altogether Zen demands an ability to participate in a communal life as regimented and lacking in privacy as the army. — Harold Stewart

:up:



Many people here are posting the same thoughts as I have better than me. Oh well.

I think that @Joshs makes a very good point. I'll put my spin to it though: of course living in the moment sounds trivial, yet it is far from it. In fact, it's literally impossible to do, for as soon as I focus on the moment, it has passed. So If I keep reminding myself to live in the moment and fail every time, because moments are passing by, I'll necessarily get stuck in a circle I should not have dug in the first place.

I don't know much about Zen, but in my experience speaking with people who do follow some version of it, I don't really find much of a difference between it and someone who has reached a certain age in which they are at peace with life, things don't bother them much, they accept the bad and the good. It's a kind of attitude of acceptance. But I don't know what Zen adds to that, as it can be used for good or ill.

:lol:

I'll put my spin to it though: of course living in the moment sounds trivial, yet it is far from it. In fact, it's literally impossible to do, for as soon as I focus on the moment, it has passed. — Manuel

I wonder though it that's too literal and concrete an understanding of living in the moment. If one gets too obsessive about details the bigger picture can fade away. Living in the moment, as I understand it, means not dwelling on the past or being preoccupied about what's next and/or what might happen and it is all about appreciating 'now' and being able to experience or enjoy what's happening as it's happening. It isn't literally trying to do the impossible with time.

Sure, I think that's the type of guidance this type of thinking aims to, not meant to be taken literally as right-in-this-moment-in-time.

But I also get the impression that because "living in the moment" can be ambiguous - it can lead one to defeat the purpose of the exercise. Sure, your interpretation is sensible, but a person entering this naively or worse, reading a self help book, will force themselves to live in the moment. But I don't think living in the moment can be forced, or at least it's not sustainable for long periods of time.

It might even be an easier way to get in, by getting lost in something. Writing, reading a novel, listening to music. Then you can extrapolate to more mundane events: being in traffic, waiting for a long time at a doctors office, etc.

"Living in the moment" comes in ebbs and flows, though practitioners of Zen might be able to do it at will, after much training.

I am reading Pierre Hadot's Philosophy as a Way of Life, and it too stresses the importance of living in the moment - which is really just another way of saying, not being preoccupied, being present, being mindful, being here now. Not that it's an easy discipline to maintain! But it's a very general kind of maxim, there's nothing specific about Zen Buddhism in particular which addresses it. Although I do remember one of the stories from Zen Flesh, Zen Bones:

Every-Minute Zen

Zen students are with their masters at last ten years before they presume to teach others. Nan-in was visited by Tenno, who, having passed his apprenticeship, had become a teacher. The day happened to be rainy, so Tenno wore wooden clogs and carried an umbrella. After greeting him Nan-in remarked: “I suppose you left your wooden clogs in the vestibule. I want to know if your umbrella is on the right or left side of the clogs.”

Tenno, confused, had no instant answer. He realized that he was unable to carry his Zen every minute. He became Nan- in’s pupil, and he studied six more years to accomplish his every-minute Zen. — 101 Zen Stories

Living in the moment" comes in ebbs and flows, though practitioners of Zen might be able to do it at will, after much training. — Manuel

Yes, I think living in the moment is critical for happiness more generally. I don't follow Zen but I've seen over the years that even very successful and prosperous individuals spend their lives not able to appreciate what they have - especially relationships and experiences - because they are too busy being haunted by the need to fill every waking moment with strategic thinking and a kind of undifferentiated fear of loss.

it too stresses the importance of living in the moment - which is really just another way of saying, not being preoccupied, being present, being mindful, being here now. Not that it's an easy discipline to maintain! — Wayfarer

Nice summary. I'm better at this the older I get. I find my experience of time slows down greatly if I just appreciate the here and now, feeling grateful and, for want of a better term, subtracting thoughts from my mind.

Thirty-five years ago I spent much time ruminating over this quote from Alan Watts.

I have realized that the past and future are real illusions, that they exist in the present, which is what there is and all there is.”

Sounds like a course in OCD to me.

Yeah see you’re point….lying awake at midnight on your thin rattan mattress….’where did I put that umbrella….’

ha! That is the past though. Surely a correct response to the Zen master would be that there is no umbrella in this present moment. It's only me and you, Zen master...

Wild stare intensifies

Living in the moment, as I understand it, means not dwelling on the past or being preoccupied about what's next and/or what might happen and it is all about appreciating 'now' and being able to experience or enjoy what's happening as it's happening. It isn't literally trying to do the impossible with time. — Tom Storm

Notice that when you talk about experiencing the past or the future , you emphasize a certain style of approach , a certain mood or attitude. I am ‘pre-occupied’ rather than just being occupied with my future. I am ‘dwelling on’ rather than flowing though the past. I suggest what characterizes these experiences as negative dwelling on and pre-occupation isn’t their temporal position as past or future but the way we move through recollection or anticipation. Since I hold to the view that recollection is a constructive activity, I don’t give it lesser status in relation to the supposed freshness of the now. Recollection is essential to imagination and thus creative thought. As far as anticipating into the future , this also depends in part both on recollection and experience of the present. If we stare into a night sky and let our mind drift off into vast futures , it can give us a sense of profundity peace view of breadth of perspective. It can make the problems of the now fade into insignificance.
How can it do this if it is not keeping us within the now?

Because the ‘now’ is the flow of nows, and this flow is always characterized by a style, an attitude, a mood. It doesn’t matter whether this mood is generated from a reflection on a long ago event , an event far off in the future or one occurring right this moment. What matters is how we are understanding the flow of events to unfold one out of the previous. Are they harmoniously intercorrelated one with the next so as to make some kind of referential sense to us, or are they a puzzle to us , a chaos of unpredictability and alienation? This is what determines ether our experience of the ‘now’ is enjoyable or miserable and isolating.

There are times when we feel stuck in our thinking and our feeling, for instance when we are depressed, and typically this stuckneas is inescapable regardless of whether we dwell in memories , focus on the present or imagine into the future. What is often needed to snap us out of this depression is to create a fresh meaningful way forward. Being in the moment isn’t enough. It’s HOW we are being in the moment. This can be accomplished from out of any of the three temporal modes , but will ultimately involve all three. I rethink my past in relation to a changed present(sometimes just rethinking the past will
change one’s present) , which anticipates freshly into the future.

Or one could say keeping one’s present from becoming a stale, stuck recycling of habits of thought involves dipping into the future in order to reinvent one’s past.

I am ‘pre-occupied’ rather than just being occupied with my future. I am ‘dwelling on’ rather than flowing though the past. I suggest what characterizes these experiences as negative dwelling on and pre-occupation isn’t their temporal position as past or future but the way we move through recollection or anticipation. — Joshs

No question, it's a construct - I am simply reporting on the words commonly used by people when describing their process to me. A common theme reported is people's notions of what they have done and what they still need to do overriding the experience (and joy) of what they are doing now - regardless of whether these 'intrusions' accurately reflect the past or potential future. It's very easy to get lost in a vortex of 'should haves' and 'must dos'.

I spoke to a very successful businessman recently who was exhausted. His daughter had just turned 18. He told me he couldn't remember much between her birth and her birthday last week. He'd been too busy building a career to stop and take notice. Pretty common experience.

when we are depressed, and typically this stuckneas is inescapable regardless of whether we dwell in memories , focus on the present or imagine into the future. What is often needed to snap us out of this depression is to create a fresh meaningful way forward. Being in the moment isn’t enough. — Joshs

Agree. In fact thinking may not be of use - doing may be preferable.

Living in the moment seems to be qualia worship. No wonder people find it so difficult.

The story is odd because in that moment the protagonist seems to ignore the present threats of the tiger and the fall in favor of eating a berry.

Living in the moment seems to be qualia worship. — bongo fury

That's a funny line.

In fact, it's literally impossible to do, for as soon as I focus on the moment, it has passed. So If I keep reminding myself to live in the moment and fail every time, because moments are passing by, I'll necessarily get stuck in a circle I should not have dug in the first place. — Manuel

The moment does not pass, nor does it arrive, it is always here and always now. To be present, is to be where you are already and since it’s not possible to be elsewhere, we are all living in the present moment. Life is either here now, or not at all.

That's fine. I'm only accentuating that, strictly speaking, "now" always passes. So if we want to speak sensibly about now, we should probably consider the specious present, which includes the almost immediate future as well as the almost immediate past.

I think that makes the idea of "now", a bit more concrete. But's it's a technicality, which is not wrong, I don't think.

Surely a correct response to the Zen master would be that there is no umbrella in this present moment. It's only me and you, Zen master...

Wild stare intensifies — emancipate

Now it should be apparent that this first aspect of Zen training, which Westerners are also required to follow on induction into a Zen monastery, is precisely the method least suited to their spiritual needs and temperament. For thanks to their cultural indoctrination, most Westerners are initially suffering from elephantiasis of the ego. They soon find that their desires for food, drink, sex, sleep, and drugs assert themselves more strongly than before; and so they react rebelliously against the severe mental, moral, and physical disciplines of the monastic life. Recalling the Zen dialogues that they have read in books, they wish to treat the roshi at once as an equal, answering him back with impertinence and a disrespect for his superior rank, or even with physical assault. Such behaviour not only upsets the monastic routine but may even corrupt the Japanese monks, so that as a result of costly experience many Zen monasteries have now closed their doors to foreigners. — Harold Stewart

The Right Mind And The Confused Mind

The Right Mind is the mind that does not remain in one place. It is the mind that stretches throughout the entire body and self.

The Confused Mind is the mind that, thinking something over, congeals in one place.

When the Right Mind congeals and settles in one place, it becomes what is called the Confused Mind. When the Right Mind is lost, it is lacking in function here and there. For this reason, it is important not to lose it.

In not remaining in one place, the Right Mind is like water. The Confused Mind is like ice, and ice is unable to wash hands or head. When ice is melted, it becomes water and flows everywhere, and it can wash the hands, the feet or anything else.

If the mind congeals in one place and remains with one thing, it is like frozen water and is unable to be used freely: ice that can wash neither hands nor feet. When the mind is melted and is used like water, extending throughout the body, it can be sent wherever one wants to send it.

This is the Right Mind.

The Mind Of The Existent Mind And The Mind Of No-Mind

The Existent Mind is the same as the Confused Mind and is literally read as the "mind that exists." It is the mind that thinks in one direction, regardless of subject. When there is an object of thought in the mind, discrimination and thoughts will arise. Thus it is known as the Existent Mind.

The No-Mind is the same as the Right Mind. It neither congeals nor fixes itself in one place. It is called No-Mind when the mind has neither discrimination nor thought but wanders about the entire body and extends throughout the entire self.

The No-Mind is placed nowhere. Yet it is not like wood or stone. Where there is no stopping place, it is called No-Mind. When it stops, there is something in the mind. When there is nothing in the mind, it is called the mind of No-Mind. It is also called No-Mind-No-Thought.

When this No-Mind has been well developed, the mind does not stop with one thing nor does it lack any one thing. It is like water overflowing and exists within itself. It appears appropriately when facing a time of need.

The mind that becomes fixed and stops in one place does not function freely. Similarly, the wheels of a cart go around because they are not rigidly in place. If they were to stick tight, they would not go around. The mind is also something that does not function if it becomes attached to a single situation.

If there is some thought within the mind, though you listen to the words spoken by another, you will not really be able to hear him. This is because your mind has stopped with your own thoughts.

If your mind leans in the directions of these thoughts, though you listen, you will not hear; and though you look, you will not see. This is because there is something in your mind. What is there is thought. If you are able to remove this thing that is there, your mind will become No-Mind, it will function when needed, and it will be appropriate to its use.

The mind that thinks about removing what is within it will by the very act be occupied. If one will not think about it, the mind will remove these thoughts by itself and of itself become No-Mind.

If one always approaches his mind in this way, at a later date it will suddenly come to this condition by itself. If one tries to achieve this suddenly, it will never get there.

An old poem says:
To think, "I will not think"-
This, too, is something in one’s thoughts.
Simply do not think
About not thinking at all.

-Takuan Soho, "The Unfettered Mind"

No doubt this Zen tale was exaggerated for effect but the point it makes is crystal clear. time is tripartite (past, present, future). The past - don't cry over spilt milk, that ship has sailed, you've missed the bus, the train has left the station and so on and that's that. We have left over the present and the future. These two are like conjoined twins - what you do to one, the present, affects the other, the future, causality 101. Ergo, we have to, we must, always factor the future in any calculus done in the present. What then to make of this piece of Zen wisdom? It's wrong of course! Nonetheless, it contains a valuable lesson - don't get so absorbed in planning (for the future) that you become oblivious of the present. In short, have the best of both worlds, enjoy what's enjoyable in the present but do think about the future. It's not an either or option, both can be yours! :chin: In terms of romantic liaisons, you'd be a two-timing bastard/bitch! :chin: Reminds me of myself. :lol:

I've discoverd a new fallacy, thanks to you for reminding me and the credit also goes to a certain woman (A).

Best of both worlds fallacy (exclusive/inclusive OR)

Now this woman, A, asked me, on a lazy Sunday afternoon, "what do you want to do? Do the dishes or clean the house?" I opted to do the dishes and no sooner than I'd finished, she asked me to clean the house (with her). I wanted to object but then my knowledge of logic forbade me to do so. After all, she (A) hadn't specified whether the or was the exclusive or "or" the inclusive or. The devil, as they say, is in the details.

Yeah Yeah. Maybe I am just a westerner but that quote merely describes yet another religion; replete with a hierarchy, a caste system, rules to obey, dogma to believe, sin to avoid... That's what happens to Zen when man gets involved.

The thread is about zen, so I’m just presenting a realistic depiction of it, rather than the Shangri-la Buddhism that most people think it is. I mean, look at the OP. ‘Because of Zen, should I max out my credit cards?’ ‘Oh yeah sure thing, great idea. Just the kind of thing the Buddha would encourage.’

Fair enough and good point.

A, asked me, on a lazy Sunday afternoon, "what do you want to do? Do the dishes or clean the house? — TheMadFool

This happens to me all the time. The answer is usually "No.", but occasionally, "No, thank you, I want to laze."

This happens to me all the time. The answer is usually "No.", but occasionally, "No, thank you, I want to laze." — unenlightened

:lol: