One cannot sensibly talk about those things of which nothing can be said. — Banno
what cannot be said is of the highest import. (...) it is expressed in art.... (....). — Banno
what cannot be said is of the highest import. Instead of being said it is (....) .....found in what folk actually do (...). — Banno
Banno
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↪Aidan buk Here's where this discussion generally leads, Aidan. To a division between those who think there is something more to be said and those who think it can only be shown. — Banno
the idea of an intersubjective locus of meaning makes no sense without subjectivities that interact.
— Joshs
This is a misunderstanding of Wittgenstein, relying on meaning rather than use, while giving primacy to the subjective. You would maintain some variation of a private language, disguised as "subjectivities". Go ahead, but then you can say nothing interesting about them. — Banno
What we do by naming, using words, is telling stories.
— T Clark
Perhaps, but far and away too close to empirical anthropology, and very far from epistemological metaphysics. I have very little interest in the former, and great interest in the latter. I want to know how the method by which naming occurs, not so much the post hoc employment of it. The former makes necessary I understand myself, which I control, but the latter only makes possible another understands me, which I cannot. — Mww
Is the sharing of a perceptual image or a sound recording also the telling of a story? — Joshs
If the limits of our language are the limits of our world, then those things of which nothing can be said, must be within our world... what with us having just used language to refer to them. — Isaac
The interesting thing is that what cannot be said is of the highest import. Instead of being said it is expressed in art, and found in what folk actually do, as opposed to what the might say. — Banno
My position is that music, and visual arts, don't mean anything. Meaning comes with words. — T Clark
The observer cannot say with any certainty the artist has addressed that of the highest import in any way at all. — Mww
For the sake of simplicity (???) it shall be the limit that people do things by accident, reflex or reason. All things done by accident, reflex or reason are things people actually do. Accident or reflex cannot justify intentional acts, so either those must be eliminated as causality for acts of expression of that which is of highest import, or, intentional acts cannot justify expression of that which is of the highest import. The latter seems logical inconsistent, so tacitly grants authority to assert that acts expressing that which is of the highest import, to be necessarily intentional acts. Whatever it is a person does, in the expression of that which is of the highest import, he must do intentionally. — Mww
If only words convey past and future , how is it that visual images convey the present?That painting is full of symbols that relate to events before and after the event. I think you need words to convey past and future. — frank
If only words convey past and future , how is it that visual images convey the present? — Joshs
When looking at the painting, why couldn’t we deal with those symbols that come to mind relating to events before and after the event in either verbal form or via images of the past or future? — Joshs
The visual image of that painting doesn't tell you that there are symbols embedded in it, so how could they come to mind by simply looking at it? — frank
My position is that music, and visual arts, don't mean anything. Meaning comes with words. — T Clark
Music and visual arts can can of course still be profound. There is a strong sense in which setting out the meaning of a piece is detracting from it.
3h — Banno
transcend the subject-object binary... — Joshs
Certain statements are labeled subjective because they set out an individuals taste or feelings. In contrast, other statements are called objective, as they do not set out an individual's taste, feelings or opinions.
So that I prefer vanilla to chocolate ice-cream is a subjective fact - or if you prefer, it is a subjective truth. It's truth is dependent on my own taste.
That this text is written in English is not dependent on my own taste or feelings. Hence it is an objective truth.
That's an end to it; don't allow the notions of subjectivity and objectivity to take on any more significance.
in particular, don't pretend that there are either only subjective facts, or that there are only objective facts. — Banno
I think creativity is a cycle beginning with tentative , incipient music-like intuitive stabs at the new. One hears a new music in one’s
head. If one is a musician one doesn’t have to take this process any further, but if one is a scientist or philosopher one warns to enrich, tighten and define what is at first only a feeling so that it becomes a coherent , clarified concept rather than remaining only a loose sketch. — Joshs
How does the visual image of the word ‘hello’ that you are looking at now tell you that there is a symbol embedded in it? — Joshs
What is that that allows you to ‘decode’ a seemingly random pattern of dots into first a series of lines, curved and angles, and then further into letters, and after that into words? — Joshs
Do we need a name for the object in order to recognize it as an object? — Joshs
that I prefer vanilla to chocolate ice-cream is a subjective fact - or if you prefer, it is a subjective truth. It's truth is dependent on my own taste.
That this text is written in English is not dependent on my own taste or feelings. Hence it is an objective truth.
That's an end to it; don't allow the notions of subjectivity and objectivity to take on any more significance.
in particular, don't pretend that there are either only subjective facts, or that there are only objective facts. — Banno
Sorry. There just wasn’t a trigger in your comments sufficient to inspire me to engage with them. I did explain myself, which I considered to be enough, so..... — Mww
I don't think the song is sitting in the muso's head, complete, just needing to be birthed. I think it develops as it is played. — Banno
But don’t the components of a painting tell a story? — Joshs
I could describe in words da Vinci’s last supper, or show the painting. Could the words used to describe the scene ever convey more than the visual image? — Joshs
I'll agree with this, but add that it is by way of a definition of meaning. Music and visual arts can can of course still be profound. There is a strong sense in which setting out the meaning of a piece is detracting from it. — Banno
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