The media is not composed of an 'objective' and disinterested group of people who simply state facts. Its members have biases and preferences--be they from the Left or the Right--and we should therefore be suspicious of the attempt to portray truth as a simple matter. — Erik
I don't think that the practise of criticizing is as clear as you make it sound. To take your example, one can simply say that the dish is lacking something, "it doesn't taste the way I think it should", without even being capable of identifying the exact problem. There is no clear idea of "how it should taste", or of what is needed to make it taste that way. To determine that something is missing, and to determine what it is that is missing are two distinct procedures. It is the same in the example of sickness, the person who is sick may be able to say "I am sick", without having any capacity to diagnose the illness. — Metaphysician Undercover
The matter is this. Moral principles are very difficult to understand logically. Values must be grounded in ends. The end is what makes the value a "true" value, it is validated by the end. Ends must be clearly defined, or principles laid out whereby an end may be determined as good or bad, or else there are no true values whatsoever. You say "truthfulness is a value", but you do not support that logically, with reasons why truthfulness should be valued. Without these reasons, the claim is hollow. — Metaphysician Undercover
So here is an example of criticism without an alternative proposal. I can criticise the mores of our society. I can say truth is becoming devalued. I can say that the entire moral structure, which was upheld in days long past, by the church, is becoming devalued. I can say that we take morality for granted, as if it is some naturally occurring thing, through the forces of evolution, and we've lost track of the fact that morality is really created artificially, requiring effort, strength of will. In our society we just assume that people will instinctively act morally, we have evolved to be like this. I have absolutely no idea or proposal for how to fix this. That's way beyond me. I can see a problem, and analyze it. And as I alluded to in the last passage, I can claim that it has to do with a loss of the philosophical mindset, but this is just deferring to a further problem. All I am doing here is working to identify the problem, similar to what Socrates did. I am providing no suggestions for resolution of the problem. — Metaphysician Undercover
I continue to think that in each of these cases the understanding takes its measure from some notion of wholeness or completeness, regardless of how difficult this may be to pinpoint or articulate. — Erik
Okay, so truthfulness should be valued not as an end in itself, but because it contributes to the building up of trust and legitimacy in society, which in turn serve as the foundation for the ultimate end, which is social order and stability. When trust is eroded through the use of lies by political leaders then legitimacy withers away, and when legitimacy is lacking then social stability is threatened. Without social stability then other ends, like economic prosperity, seem unattainable. If we start by positing individual freedom as the ultimate end or goal, then it would seem like something more akin to an anarchic 'state of nature' would be preferable, with an overemphasis on public security and stability threatening freedom and autonomy. Either way though I don't see how truth-telling could be disadvantageous to the social order. I'm sure you'll have plenty of counter-examples. — Erik
Now of course the likes of Plato and Machiavelli and Nietzsche (in other words men much smarter than me) extolled the use of lies and deception precisely in the name of order and stability. But even they felt there must at least be the appearance of truth. Why is that? Why the human proclivity against being lied to? I'm not sure. For me I feel it may have a lot to do with pride and ego. The fact that you lied to me makes me think you don't respect me, that you'd like to manipulate me for your own nefarious ends, etc. I recall the experience of my own enthusiastic patriotism giving way first to sadness and then to anger. I was lied to. I was ready to go join the military and possibly give my life for these noble ideals and lofty values I'd imbibed as a child (through schooling, movies, etc.), and then to find out they were largely bullshit? That was a pretty devastating experience. — Erik
Anyhow I feel that much of the righteous indignation from those on the Left over Trump's habitual lying can be traced to the sense that he has zero respect for anything they value, and that he'll gladly lie in order to roll back any prior achievements won by progressives. So it's not his lying per se, but the aim of his lies which is the more important issue. — Erik
There's a complete lack of trust, a sense that our government is illegitimate, and intimations of civil war sometime in the future as this nation hardens into two hostile camps with radically different worldviews. — Erik
You hate Donald Trump, and rightfully so, but this has blinded you to the propaganda you're being fed. — Erik
The Internet age has created a false democracy, where people say, ‘That’s my opinion,’ as if all opinions were equal.
Conspiracy theories are considered to belong to false beliefs overlooking the pervasive unintended consequences of political and social action. Social media fostered the production of an impressive amount of rumors, mistrust, and conspiracy-like narratives aimed at explaining (and oversimplifying) reality and its phenomena.
Like me :Pthere are plenty of people who will dispute even that. — Wayfarer
Well to be honest, what would you do if you were DJT, and you were trying to implement your program and the press was harassing you continuously? Wouldn't you exclude them from covering you? They are slowing down and interfering in the work you're trying to do, it's normal to stop them from doing that.Today's news is that he has excluded a number of media outlets from the White House briefing. — Wayfarer
Trump is not a liar, or at least he does not give off that impression. To lie is to intentionally deceive, whereas I think Trump genuinely believes the things he says, some of which may not in fact be true. Being wrong does not make him a liar, though. — Thorongil
do you think he really believes that all these press stories criticizing him and his team are "fake news"? — Baden
So, it's highly ironic that the same Republicans who regularly accused Obama of acting like a dictator because of a few executive orders are now lining up lemming-like to follow Trump off the cliff into tyranny. — Baden
However, I think it absurd to suggest that we're heading toward tyranny. — Thorongil
I think he believes a lot of the stories about him are fake news, about which he is right. — Thorongil
Personally I think "post-truth", quite ironically, doesn't even refer to Trump, but rather to the media itself. The media is post-truth - what they report - most of them - has nothing to do with reality, it's like the media has created a fantasy world that people live in. — Agustino
Name them — Baden
Fake news proliferates. House minority leader Nancy Pelosi and Representative Elijah Cummings recently attacked departing national-security adviser Michael Flynn by reading a supposed Flynn tweet that was a pure invention. Nor did Trump, as reported, have a serious plan to mobilize 100,000 National Guard troops to enforce deportations. Other false stories claimed that Trump had pondered invading Mexico, that his lawyer had gone to Prague to meet with the Russians, and that he had removed from the Oval Office a bust of Martin Luther King Jr. — sure proof of Trump's racism. Journalists — including even fact-checker Glenn Kessler of the Washington Post — reposted fake news reports that Trump's father had run a campaign for the New York mayorship during which he'd aired racist TV ads.
I'm not talking about a full-blown tyranny as he won't get that far (though not for want of trying) but an attempt to destroy all media that is critical of the government is tyrannical, and he's got most conservatives right behind him. — Baden
real news outlets — Baden
The tendency to promote a fantasy view of life - that Trump can 'bring the jobs back' and 'make people safe' — Wayfarer
I read NY Times and Washington Post online. — Wayfarer
From a recent article I read: — Thorongil
You could have egg on your face if the economy does significantly better under Trump than under Obama, which I see as likely, depending on what he follows through with. — Thorongil
Just to pop the caricature balloon peddled by Thorongil, the 'article he read' is from Victor Davis Hanson, in National Review - who says in the same article 'Trump’s edicts are mostly common-sense and non-controversial'. — Wayfarer
Let's presume you really believe that most of what news outlets such as CNN report has "nothing to do with reality" and is creating a "fantasy world". — Baden
Just to pop the caricature balloon peddled by Thorongil — Wayfarer
The travel ban was drafted in very slapdash fashion — Wayfarer
and no actual terrorist attacks on American soil had originated from a citizen of the countries named in the ban, since 2000. — Wayfarer
That is why, when challenged in the courts, it was immediately suspended — Wayfarer
like non-existent terrorist attacks in Sweden. — Wayfarer
But Hanson is right. It makes sense to place some sort of a moratorium on immigration from countries whose populations we have little to no information about and which house large numbers of terrorists. — Thorongil
These same countries were being watched by the Obama administration as particularly dangerous. — Thorongil
He vaguely mentioned the fact that Sweden's asylum seekers and immigrants commit more crimes than native Swedes. — Thorongil
Which could be done, quite effectively, using the current immigration system, visa vetting, and other controls that are already in place. — Wayfarer
show the world what a 'Muslim Ban' really looks like - which is what actually happened. — Wayfarer
So if you're going to correct someone, at least get your facts right, especially in this context. — Wayfarer
The notion that Trump is actuallya suitable person and professionally competent to be President. — Wayfarer
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