• Leghorn
    577
    I begin this thread in response to the backlash I received from several other members of TPF when, in the Short Story Discussion thread, I criticized Simone Biles for withdrawing from the gymnastics events in which she was scheduled to compete, in the Tokyo Olympics. This backlash was swift and furious, profanity-laced, and put the highest degree of moral indignation at my remarks on display. How could I be so insensitive? How so racist in my views? etc. For I said I had perceived a pattern in the withdrawal of Biles and Naomi Osaka, women of color as I noted, from their highest competitions, both citing “mental health issues” as the reason, and I called it a “cop-out”.

    After a bit of internet research, I was reminded that a movement in the media and society to bring awareness to the plight of athletes suffering from mental health issues has been taking place for a few years now, and the focus has not been confined to minority athletes (women, or ones of color): Michael Phelps and Kevin Love have been forthcoming with their struggles. But the focus tends to be on ones belonging to minorities, or oppressed groups, and the reason for this is because these ppl are perceived to be preternaturally disadvantaged: their start in the race is staggered, or they are teeing off from the back tees, or they are playing with a “handicap”, etc., and this disadvantage places greater stress on their mental health...

    ...that consideration is the only reason I tied women of color to this movement; for I do not, as someone accused me of, believe that black athletes are inferior to white ones.

    The consensus in the media and society at large is that Simone was courageous to do what she did... and this causes one to consider what courage is. In the vulgar traditional sense, it is simply the overcoming of fear. In the Classical philosophic tradition, it is knowing what ought and ought not be feared. In Simone’s case, what did she fear?

    That is a question I think we can never answer. Did she fear catastrophic injury resulting from a landing that could not be at all predicted after many convoluted twists in mid-air? Gymnasts have broken their necks and died from such accidents... but none of them was a great champion, and bull-riders and matadors, some of them great champions, have been gored and trampled in their quests for glory.

    Did she fear she would fail to dominate and win many golds? Did she fear she would fail to cement her name as the greatest female gymnast of all time in the record, or as the greatest gymnast period? Or as the greatest male or female athlete in any sport? Those expectations are the heaviest an athlete could bear, yet great champions have shouldered them in the past.

    We know, however, that she feared something strongly enough to forego competition that is rare and confers the greatest honors on its victors. To shun such an opportunity in the past was considered cowardice. Now however, for the athlete aspiring to honors that appear to him to be too burdensome, there is a way out: drop out and confess the unbearable stress; appeal to a popular movement that wants to equalize all human beings as vulnerable; jump on the mental health bandwagon and be assured of support from all those who most influence popular opinion.

    In fine, courage used to be overcoming fear. Now it is succumbing to it.
  • praxis
    6.5k
    In Simone’s case, what did she fear?Leghorn

    I haven’t been following the Olympics this year, or this story, but I would guess there’s fear in the consequences of withdrawing from events, like losing sponsors and the risk of generally damaging her career. I’m inclined to sympathize, personally.
  • Leghorn
    577
    I would guess there’s fear in the consequences of withdrawing from events, like losing sponsors and the risk of generally damaging her career.praxis

    So because she feared withdrawing, she withdrew?
  • praxis
    6.5k
    I don’t know what happened. I’m simply saying that withdrawing can have undesirable consequences that can be feared.
  • Leghorn
    577
    I’m simply saying that withdrawing can have undesirable consequences that can be feared.praxis

    And therefore Simone is courageous, because she overcame the fear of the undesirable consequences of withdrawing from competition. Is that what you are saying?
  • praxis
    6.5k


    I don’t know if I’d say “overcame” but yes. She’s a national hero so I’d expect the press be sympathetic and supportive.
  • Tom Storm
    9k
    I don't watch sport or care for it. But I would have thought someone should have the freedom to make a decision to withdraw (from anything) and in most instances we should be able to trust them to make the right choice - given how hard such a choice (in this situation) must be. We don't know what is in people's minds, nor do we know the experiences that contribute towards people's precarious mental health. Everyone is different. It can be very brave to make a choice that goes against plans and expectations.
  • Streetlight
    9.1k
    Imagine writing 7 paragraphs because someome treated like a show pony didn't do some tricks for them.
  • Leghorn
    577
    Well yes, Mr. Practicality, I too would expect the press to be sympathetic and supportive. And she WAS a national hero, and will continue to be in the popular consciousness. But are the press and people correct?
  • Enrique
    842


    Mental health issues can keep you awake for days, interfere with your thought patterns, disorient you, etc. Its brave just to live with the stress let alone compete at a world class level when you have been pushed so far below your capacity for peak performance. And we all know mental health symptoms have nothing to do with weakness of character: all kinds of people can suddenly or gradually trip out because of that stuff.
  • Leghorn
    577
    Imagine writing 7 paragraphs because someome treated like a show pony didn't do some tricks for them.StreetlightX

    She chose to be the show pony. I enjoyed the show... until there was none.
  • Streetlight
    9.1k
    She chose to be the show ponyLeghorn

    And you chose to write 7 paragraphs about it.
  • hope
    216
    How so racist in my views?Leghorn

    "Racist" is a modern day catch-all word used against anyone that is against the snowflake socialism mentality.

    Only thing you can do nowadays is to play the victim like everyone else. Otherwise you will be lynched as a "racist".
  • Leghorn
    577
    It can be very brave to make a choice that goes against plans and expectations.Tom Storm

    In this case however, the other plans and expectations aligned perfectly with a popular movement that supports anyone who cites mental health issues as the reason for not competing.
  • Tom Storm
    9k
    In this case however, the other plans and expectations aligned perfectly with a popular movement that supports anyone who cites mental health issues as the reason for not competing.Leghorn

    I think mental health should take precedence over other things, so what's up?
  • Leghorn
    577
    And you chose to write 7 paragraphs about it.StreetlightX

    I felt the need to respond to an outcry from members of this forum that I am racist and insensitive.
  • Streetlight
    9.1k
    Yeah that's probably not entirely fair.

    Although holy shit your entitlement fucking reeks. And it's most certainly a vast and snowflaky oversensitivity, and certainly not an insensitiviry.
  • jgill
    3.8k
    It's not "mental health" the way you may think. I was a gymnast many, many years ago and recall how little glitches can occur in complicated routines. Especially when twisting and turning at high speed. If you have a near miss it might affect you for a while. Once you start thinking about the experience things can get worse. You can't think. It's all programmed.

    It's so much more complicated than running around a track or swimming in a pool.
  • praxis
    6.5k
    But are the press and people correct?Leghorn

    Are they correct in being supportive of an amazing athlete? Of course.
  • Leghorn
    577
    Although holy shit your entitlement fucking reeks.StreetlightX

    Yes, Mr. Contemporary Avenue Illuminator: I am so entitled: I have no job, no money, am horrendously ugly, no status, no position, no prospect of furtherance in the affairs of man. Hey, I guess that’s why I’m in the Philosophy Forum!
  • Streetlight
    9.1k
    I am so entitled: I have no job, no money, am horrendously ugly, no status, no position, no prospect of furtherance in the affairs of man.Leghorn

    Ah, no wonder you feel the need to whine extensively about someone not performing tricks for your entertainment. You've little else.

    Back in the good old days we used to whine about good stuff. Now we're overly sensitive, easily triggered snowflakes who get mad because some young woman who means nothing to me and who I will forget about in a week didn't do the flippy zippy do dah.
  • Leghorn
    577
    Ah, no wonder you feel the need to whine extensively about someone not performing tricks for your entertainment. You've little else.StreetlightX

    NOTHING else, to tell you the truth. Thanks for your sympathy and perspicuity.
  • Streetlight
    9.1k
    Thanks for your sympathy and perspicuity.Leghorn

    No worries. I'm glad your demands and claims over other people's highly trained performing bodies gets your fragile, armchair rocks off.
  • Leghorn
    577
    I would like to have responded to others’ comments contemporaneously, but I must go: it is past my bedtime. Perhaps I will respond to them tomorrow...

    ...I don’t know how Jack does it...This is is the first thread I’ve started in months!
  • Enrique
    842
    "Racist" is a modern day catch-all word used against anyone that is against the snowflake socialism mentality.hope

    No one's giving gold medals to anyone for not trying, but we all gotta be respected enough to live at the very least, even when expectations have to change, unless you want dystopia, which is pretty much where we're at actually.
  • fishfry
    3.4k
    I begin this thread in response to the backlash I receivedLeghorn

    Never helps.

    In fine, courage used to be overcoming fear. Now it is succumbing to it.Leghorn

    Agree. I'm reminded of the blitz, when Hitler's Luftwaffe bombed London every night for eight months from 1940-41. If it happened today, the Brits would have surrendered to Germany "to prioritize their mental health." What they did instead was show incredible courage, huddling in the underground subway stations and stiffening their spines, till Hitler gave up and went off to attack Russia. In retrospect it was the bravery of those Londoners who turned the course of the war.
  • tim wood
    9.2k
    Simone Biles, in addition to mastering her realm of gymnastics, also is a master of public speaking. But I look at it this way. If your auto mechanic says don't drive your car until you get it fixed, are you gong to pay attention to the warning? After all, what does your auto mechanic know about cars?

    Three things (at least, no doubt many more but at least these three) Simone may be taken to be an expert on, herself, her gymnastics, and what it takes to win. If she says no go, then the only reasonable, rational understanding is that it's no go. Period. All else is noise from people lacking the sense and grace to be quiet.
  • Hanover
    12.8k
    Her courage was in revealing her mental health issues because those suffering are often condemned in public as being of weak character, just as you've done. Telling the world you have a heart condition doesn't bring such stigma, but telling of a mental health disorder does. I read your initial comment that sparked this discussion and just thought it immature and thoughtless, so I ignored it. For some reason though you want to better develop your position, as if it needs explaining, and you throw in a racist rant about how only blacks and women get to take advantage of the bullshit mental illness excuse.

    So, to clarify, mental illness is real, it interferes in all forms of employment, from candlestick maker to gymnast, and your position, if it's truly not racist and not dismissive of mental health issues, needs to be restated because you do come off very poorly in this thread
  • Joshs
    5.6k
    I think there are some interesting points that are being ignored here, regardless of Leghorn’s motives. For instance, the concept of competition has changed relative to 50 years ago. Leghorn is correct that athletic courage used to be thought of in terms of ignoring pain and suffering , both mental and physical , for the sake of athletic achievement for oneself and one’s team. Today there is an appreciation that one’s mental and physical well-being is more important than winning at any cost. This reduces the focus on competition and redirects it toward a more balanced concept of excellence. Included in this new thinking is the role of culture in either promoting or hindering personal excellence, which is where the discussion of racial bias comes into play. I think these are all positive and necessary developments but it is quite possible that they may detract from the entertainment value of the Olympics by creating an identity crisis.

    Audiences used to expect Olympians to act as John Wayne-type superheroes. Now they like their superheroes (like Batman and Spider-man) to be depicted as angst and doubt ridden vulnerable
    mortals. It makes for a different kind of drama. If its working for cinema , maybe it will work for the Olympics.
  • Hanover
    12.8k
    A most generous read of his comments. Yours is an academic discussion of societal changes. His, a rant against decades old change, failing to adjust to a more sympathetic world.

    We all know why the old, the isolated, and the uneducated hold to the views of the past, but there's good reason those views have been swept to the dustbin. I'm willing to hear from the sociologists who discuss our social evolution, but less so to hear directly from the mouths of our dinosaurs who don't realize time passed them by.
  • Joshs
    5.6k
    We all know why the old, the isolated, and the uneducated hold to the views of the past, but there's good reason those views have been swept to the dustbin. I'm willing to hear from the sociologists who discuss our social evolution, but less so to hear directly from the mouths of our dinosaurs who don't realize time passed them by.Hanover

    You’d better be careful. Before you know it, you may find yourself being treated as the next dinosaur whom time has passed by. Foucault would have a field day providing a genealogical analysis both of the ‘reasons’ behind the change in values at the Olympics and your moralistic outrage ar those who dont follow the new orthodoxy . It sounds like you’ve latched onto the emancipatory version of critical theory but haven’t yet made your way into thoroughgoing postmodern territory
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