I don't know what the BLA is or what it's approval entails. I do know fringe media outlets are profiteering off selling the conspiracy excitement of confirmation bias. I know vaccine hesitancy is a catalyst for unnecessary death and suffering that is happening in real time.So you have a good, well-supported view that the safety of the vaccine is, currently, near sufficient for BLA approval, and so little will be gained on meeting that threshold. — Isaac
The vaccine you aren't taking now will be the vaccine I wager you won't take then. I thought about not enduring an immune system response. It sounded unpleasant. I believe this is the reason people want to have a reason not to take it.I have a good, well-supported view that the safety of the vaccine is, not currently, near sufficient for BLA approval, and so much could be gained on meeting that threshold. — Isaac
According to your population data the choice to take it seems more like a matter of community solidarity. My population needs uptake to increase in order to curb an uptrend in suffering. If your community already has upwards of 90%, then whether you personally take it is disproportionally immaterial to vaccine hesitancy happening in other places. You are in a rare position to have only yourself to worry about for the most part. It is a unique experience. So, I would expect your position is being wrongly ascribed the negative responsibility for damage that exist elsewhere.What we used to do is maintain a difference of opinion without assuming our opponents were lunatics, sociopaths or liars. That seems too much to ask these days. — Isaac
No, sometimes scientific rigor is out paced by pragmatic urgency. In fact, they may be taking more time knowing it doesn't limit access.Again, we are already quite sure. Therefore you should just get the vaccine now, even though we haven't got the extra bit of sureness from the FDA yet.
Is that basically what you were trying to say Fooloso? — Yohan
Excellent point. And by the same token, I assume you favor restrictions on the free movement of the vaccinated, since they too may infect others.
Vaccinated People May Spread the Virus, Though Rarely, C.D.C. Reports — fishfry
All of their work is to establish safety and efficacy. — Fooloso4
In this case we have a clear view of the safety and efficacy ahead of approval. — Fooloso4
They must complete their review. — Fooloso4
Marks and other experts...recommend getting the vaccine — Fooloso4
I know vaccine hesitancy is a catalyst for unnecessary death and suffering that is happening in real time. — Cheshire
The vaccine you aren't taking now will be the vaccine I wager you won't take then. I thought about not enduring an immune system response. It sounded unpleasant. I believe this is the reason people want to have a reason not to take it. — Cheshire
My population needs uptake to increase in order to curb an uptrend in suffering. — Cheshire
Firstly the vaccinated are far less likely to spread infection, even though it is acknowledged to be possible. — Janus
the vaccinated are following the medical advice in doing what is judged to be best for society as a whole, whereas the deliberately unvaccinated are acting only out of self-interest and against what is best for all. — Janus
And how much less so if they are also much more likely to become sick and burden the hospital system perhaps thereby denying a bed to someone else who needs it for some Covid unrelated emergency condition. — Janus
if you want to remain unvaccinated would you agree to sign a waiver relinquishing your right to hospitalization if you became infected with Covid and sick enough to require it? — Janus
Far less likely than whom? The unvaccinated? The unvaccinated but masked? The unvaccinated but healthy, the unvaccinated but rural dwelling, the unvaccinated but young, the unvaccinated but non-smoker... — Isaac
Where does medical advice suggest that getting vaccinated is best for society as a whole? Give me one single medical advisory that suggests I should get vaccinated, in my circumstances. — Isaac
Would you advocate the same for smoking, drinking eating red meat, not exercising enough, practising sports, doing office work, foreign travel, insufficient handwashing... — Isaac
If vaccination is roughly 90% efficacious at preventing hospitalization compared to lack of vaccination then it would be far less likely for the unvaccinated compared to the vaccinated in all of those categories, most likely. — Janus
Herd immunity is 'not a possibility' with the current Delta variant.
He referred to the idea as 'mythical' and warned that a vaccine programme should not be built around the idea of achieving it.
He predicted that the next thing may be 'a variant which is perhaps even better at transmitting in vaccinated populations', adding that that was 'even more of a reason not to be making a vaccine programme around herd immunity'. — APPG - coronavirus
In general if it is true that vaccination greatly reduces transmission of the virus then it is obviously in society's best interest that as many people as possible be vaccinated. — Janus
I don't know your circumstances, so I can;t comment about that. — Janus
the deliberately unvaccinated are acting only out of self-interest — Janus
Would you advocate the same for smoking, drinking eating red meat, not exercising enough, practising sports, doing office work, foreign travel, insufficient handwashing... — Isaac
Those activities do not enjoy pandemic status and are unlikely to overwhelm hospitals, so probably no. — Janus
Empirical observations from local nurses.Interesting. How is it that you know this? — Isaac
Human nature is fairly consistent when it comes to avoiding discomfort. I demonstrated this on this thread when 180 reversed his position.What you believe is irrelevant. why would your guess as to the reasons of others have any bearing on the matter? — Isaac
I would probably be annoyed. But, if harm to my community was the issue I would listen.The people who believe that have already taken the vaccine. We're talking here about the people who don't believe that - what should they do? Are you suggesting that other people should act, not on what they believe is right, but on on you believe is right? How would you feel if it were the other way round? — Isaac
So confused. — Isaac
It's when the FDA decide that the risks from a new medicine are outweighed by the risks from the emergency - meaning that they think people ought to take it. It would have been rather foolish of them to give it EUA and then not endorse taking it, wouldn't it? /quote]
Wrong. The FDA issued EUA for hydroxychloroquine, but did not think people ought to take it. The EUA allowed its use, but they then revoked the EUA when the determined it was unlikely to be effective. The same happened with Bamlanivimab.
— Isaac
Marks and other experts...recommend getting the vaccine
— Fooloso4
I don't think you understand what a EUA is. — Isaac
The medical advice was vaccinate a minimum of 70% of the population for the population to gain protection from the virus. The ethical matter is whether excluding yourself from the 70% is fair to the others in the population making the same choice. Is another's safety less valuable than yours without any known reason for qualification other than your willingness to doubt it? No authorities approval will predict a single outcome perfectly.Firstly the confusion between medical advice as to the safety of the vaccine and ethical decisions as to what risk it is fair to take (for what gain). — Isaac
No it is an old idea; that when a group is asked to function together for a common end then a consensus is the best it can rely on.Secondly, this new idea which has emerged that one must believe whatever the consensus, or majority or official, scientific opinion is, not simply that one ought to have their beliefs suitably supported by scientific opinion. — Isaac
Empirical observations from local nurses. — Cheshire
What good is localized data for speaking to an international matter. — Cheshire
Human nature is fairly consistent when it comes to avoiding discomfort. — Cheshire
Your position remains tied to your population. But, your argument generalizes to others. — Cheshire
It is not regarded as safe and effective because of the EUA, it is regarded as safe and effective because of the evidence, including the evidence of millions of shots that were made possible by the EUA. — Fooloso4
What are the FDA doing, right now, and how is it that you know (when seemingly even experts in public health don't even know)? — Isaac
The chance to be "fine" evaporated a long time ago. There are 600K dead. As a former machinist I take offense to your characterization of "soft first-world hands".You're at about 50% and rising still. You'll be fine. You can stop wringing your soft first-world hands about it. — Isaac
It isn't funny. It is the entire basis for the argument I've made; which you choose to ignore. What part of 'group project' is unclear. The myopia is what preserves your position in your own mind. You in the first quote pretend my circumstances are yours; then extrapolate from yours onto mine. What is a polite word for asinine?It's funny how important it seems to be that everyone gets vaccinated in whatever country you're in. Apparently, completely healthy people are either selfish, or scared, or deluded, for not getting a vaccine in one country regardless of the rest of the world. The myopia is shocking. — Isaac
The ethical matter is whether excluding yourself from the 70% is fair to the others in the population making the same choice. — Cheshire
Is another's safety less valuable than yours without any known reason for qualification other than your willingness to doubt it? — Cheshire
when a group is asked to function together for a common end then a consensus is the best it can rely on. — Cheshire
It is a case where being wrong negatively effects others; made worse by distribution to others that might have otherwise decided correctly. — Cheshire
It is the entire basis for the argument I've made — Cheshire
There was an antivax movement that lead to a measles outbreak on the island of Samoa that would serve as evidence if the casual implications aren't obvious enough for your tastes. As a follow up, try and guess how many covid cases they have today.Evidence. Honestly, we can't have a proper discussion if you're just going to make shit up. I could just say "the vaccine is poisonous anyway so no one should take it". His does that constitute an argument. Cite your fucking sources! It's like arguing with children. — Isaac
None of that has any bearing on the matter of whether it will be rendered more safe by the work being done to complete the BLA approval. — Isaac
It's just a load of bizarre psychologising about the motives for advocacy without, again, a shred of evidence. — Isaac
What are the FDA doing, right now, and how is it that you know (when seemingly even experts in public health don't even know)? — Isaac
What's good about anti-vaxxers is they give a clear signal to the medical & scientific establishment that people won't tolerate substandard work/products. — TheMadFool
we don't have effective treatment modalities against viruses. — TheMadFool
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