I would say yes, because we have no other way of determining their truth than what people find moral or beautiful. — Marchesk
It's different with empirical or mathematical claims, because we do have means to investigate independent of what one group or another thinks. There are still some people who remain convinced the world is flat, but they're simply wrong. This is easily shown. — Marchesk
Shouldn't you look at (or otherwise experience) the thing itself, to find out if it's beautiful, rather than asking or observing whether people find it beautiful? — The Great Whatever
Sorry, did an edit to try to make my point more clear.So let's say you have a specific belief - maybe torturing children is wrong - then you find out that it isn't true. Is that a possibility
— shmik
Sure, but I don't think it's likely.
Haven't you ever changed your mind about something? — The Great Whatever
I get that anti-realism isn't the norm, but so what? I don't go along with every position that is intuitively compelling if I think it's flawed.Wouldn't a more reasonable response be to say, 'you're right?' — The Great Whatever
Really? What are those methods? — The Great Whatever
But if we have two cultures, where one thinks that torturing kids in some situations is moral, and the other disagrees, then what independent means is their to determine who's right? — Marchesk
Uh, I don't know. I would have to know what song you were talking about. — The Great Whatever
Why would the culture's opinions matter? Just because someone has an opinion that p, doesn't mean that p. No? — The Great Whatever
So you are the arbitrator of what's beautiful? — Marchesk
No; whether the object is beautiful is. Of course, I can often tell whether an object is beautiful by seeing (etc.) it. — The Great Whatever
Do all statements of fact require a 'because?' — The Great Whatever
Do you always think you're wrong, or there's no fact of the matter, juyt because someone disagrees with you? People have different opinions, that's perfectly common. — The Great Whatever
What is more objective than looking at something and seeing that it's beautiful? Aren't all methods of inquiry in some sense observational like this? — The Great Whatever
I'm just pointing out that that's an odd belief, and I'm not sure how to convince you otherwise. — The Great Whatever
don't know, because I've never tried fruitcake (that I can remember). — The Great Whatever
Is there a difference between there being a truth to the matter, and an objective truth to the matter? Claiming there's no truth to the matter would seem to commit one to saying nothing is tasty, which is wrong, since plenty of things are. So you must have something else in mind. — The Great Whatever
But what if he just replied, 'I don't believe this map is accurate?' — The Great Whatever
Or what if he just said 'I don't believe my eyes reveal objects independent of them?' — The Great Whatever
I'm not sure what you mean. — The Great Whatever
Are we not discussing the case for or against moral realism? I'm confused at your confusion. If morality is no better than beholding a beautiful object for any given individual, then how is it real? — Marchesk
think an individual can see whether an object is beautiful by beholding it, but that the object is beautiful doesn't mean that their beholding it makes it beautiful. It already was; they just saw that it was. — The Great Whatever
and there is nothing else to something being beautiful than our perception of it. — Marchesk
I think an individual can see whether an object is beautiful by beholding it, but that the object is beautiful doesn't mean that their beholding it makes it beautiful. It already was; they just saw that it was. — The Great Whatever
But that's not true at all. For example, I can say 'I bet/hope that painting is beautiful – so I hope someone gets to see it!' and this makes perfect sense, even knowing no one has seen it. But for this to make sense, it has to have been beautiful independent of anyone's seeing it. In fact, that's why we want to go see it, because it's beautiful. — The Great Whatever
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