“Descriptive metaphysics is content to describe the actual structure of our thought about the world, revisionary metaphysics is concerned to produce a better structure.” — Peter Strawson
Your metaphysics is probably a retroactive expression of your behavior/outlook. — The Great Whatever
I am a theist, and my belief that God is real significantly affects my behavior, moral outlook, relationships, and overall worldview. — aletheist
Aletheist was probably directed toward theism at an early age. Theism became part and parcel of his metaphysics from the beginning of his life. — Bitter Crank
Well first of all, it is important to separate metaphysics from attitudes. For example, a pessimist doesn't emerge out of metaphysics, but rather it is a disposition. Someone could have a very bleak metaphysics and still be an optimist for that matter. But very often I see people confusing the two.Does your metaphysics show up in your behavior in some way? — Mongrel
No, not really. Morality requires its own immediate certainty - if you stake morality on your metaphysics, if your metaphysics ever crumbles, what will you be left with? But on the other hand if you are some sort of skeptical moralist - you'll hold to your morality even if your metaphysics falls apart. I hold to ethics as first philosophy for these reasons.In your moral outlook? — Mongrel
Again it's difficult to say - I don't have a single way to interact with people, and it's largely different from person to person.In the way you interact with people? — Mongrel
Interesting. I'm a theist as well, but I've always found it hard to stake belief in God on metaphysical commitments. I mean, what do you do if one of your central metaphysical commitments from which the reality of God was determined falls apart? I've always had that "fear", so I've morphed into a skeptical theist, much like Johann Georg Hamann if you've heard of him. Basically a theistic Hume when it comes to matters of religious belief. In this manner, belief is secure since it rests on no prior metaphysical commitments - belief is properly basic as Plantinga would say.I am a theist — aletheist
Based on what are you making the connection between behaviour and metaphysics - or even belief? Have you ever believed X and yet done something different? As Paul says in the Bible - "I do not do the good I want to do. Instead I keep on doing the evil I don't want to do"Arguably one's behavior/outlook is one's metaphyics — aletheist
Interesting. I'm a theist as well, but I've always found it hard to stake belief in God on metaphysical commitments. — Agustino
Are you a Christian theist? How do you view the theism-metaphysics connection? And if belief in God is related to your metaphysics, do you ever fear that you may find something which will shake that belief? — Agustino
Based on what are you making the connection between behaviour and metaphysics - or even belief? — Agustino
As Paul says in the Bible - "I do not do the good I want to do. Instead I keep on doing the evil I don't want to do" — Agustino
It is possible to consider it so, but for me, it's more an ethical commitment. Keeping the commandments of God (duty), love and community. It would be a metaphysical commitment too, except that my take is that we don't know - except by analogy to earthly things - what the metaphysical statements of Scriptures mean. For example - I believe in an afterlife as preached through the Bible, but I cannot specify what it would be like except vaguely and metaphorically - I cannot form any clear and crisp picture of it in my mind.Arguably, belief in God is a metaphysical commitment — aletheist
So do you mean to say that you holding to theism is ultimately independent of your philosophical commitments? That would be similar to me if so.I engage in philosophy for self-enrichment, but theism is part of my core identity. — aletheist
It's the same as I asked above - do you think there is a necessary link between philosophical/metaphysical commitments and theism, or can one be a theist pretty much regardless of their other philosophical commitments if, say, they believe in the message of the Bible and the centrality of Jesus Christ, along with doing the Will of the Father as much as possible in their day to day lives?Not sure what you mean by "connection" here — aletheist
Personally I can sympathise with this view. I think belief in God is the result of an experience (call it grace if you want) which is supra-rational, and cannot be conveyed to another by mere words - it's something that must be experienced personally. But obviously this entails that it's very difficult, if not impossible, to bring someone to God by yourself - through your own work - it will ultimately have to be God who brings them.Not really, since I believe that even my own belief in God is itself a supernatural gift from Him, so I am content to leave it in His infinitely capable hands — aletheist
Okay, I see, yes I can agree with that.I am really just affirming a central tenet of pragmaticism - a belief just is a habit of feeling, action, or thought; nothing more, nothing less. In other words, what we actually believe is manifested in what we do, not in what we claim to believe. "Actions speak louder than words," as the saying goes. — aletheist
Yes, which means that our beliefs in those particular cases are merely professed - since as you have stated before, they haven't yet become proper beliefs - habits/actions.Any honest Christian can relate to that. We all too often do things that we know are wrong, and thus contrary to our professed beliefs. We typically rationalize doing those things before, during, and after the commission of the acts. As Paul says at the end of the passage, "Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!" — aletheist
Does your metaphysics show up in your behavior in some way? In your moral outlook? In the way you interact with people? In the way you view life in general? — Mongrel
It is possible to consider it so, but for me, it's more an ethical commitment. — Agustino
It's the same as I asked above - do you think there is a necessary link between philosophical/metaphysical commitments and theism, or can one be a theist pretty much regardless of their other philosophical commitments ... — Agustino
But obviously this entails that it's very difficult, if not impossible, to bring someone to God by yourself - through your own work - it will ultimately have to be God who brings them. — Agustino
So I personally don't believe in the effectiveness of "arguments" for God ... — Agustino
I would claim that this is impossible. Firstly, I think belief comes in degrees - and secondly people can believe something without even being intellectually aware that they believe it, because again, belief is about actions. They may have the wrong notion of God and so forth, and claim they don't believe, and yet, they act for the most part like someone who believes in God. I would say that to a certain degree - in-so-far as they act rightly - they too believe in God, however unaware they are of it.People can be - and are - ethical without believing in God — aletheist
Since beliefs are habits/actions, then they don't actually believe in God. The Pope actually made some interesting remarks recently saying it's better to be an atheist than a hypocritical Catholic - intimating to the same idea, that one doesn't actually believe if they can repeat such and such phrases with their mouth. Believing entails acting in such and such a way.People can be - and are - unethical despite believing in God. — aletheist
Sure - but people like us are :PMost people are just not wired to approach issues in the way that we typically have in mind when we call it "philosophical thinking." — aletheist
Yes - I read this as grounding belief in God in actions, and not in philosophy (words and professed beliefs).Paul warned against being taken captive by "philosophy and empty deceit." — aletheist
I agree with this.Only the Word and the Spirit can do the real work of changing hearts and minds. — aletheist
But here is the crux of the matter. If someone asks them why they believe in God, and they say so and so argument because they have been taught about it AFTER they already believed in God, then they have provided a fake reason. They don't really believe in God because of that argument (regardless of how good or brilliant the argument is) - it wasn't the argument that brought them to God. When someone asks you "Why do you believe in God?" - they are asking you what brought you to believe in God, what grounds that belief. So when they give the argument, they actually obscure - even in their own minds - what actually brought them to God - which was the primordial experience which grounds that belief.Apologetics is not about convincing people to believe in God, it is about preparing Christians to be ready to give an answer - if and when someone asks for the reason why they believe what they do — aletheist
For me, I found that what reinforces the belief is remembrance of whatever combination of experiences and happenings brought you to belief in God. Reasons given after the fact seem vain and empty to my ears - like a form of self-deception, because I know that I haven't come to the belief in God through them, regardless of how good they are. In these matters I lean less on the rationalists - and more on certain personal experiences - I think the mystics of the Christian tradition are closer to the heart of religious belief than the theologians on this issue.Like most reasonings, they are more effective after someone already believes the conclusion, by serving as a way to reinforce that belief and/or explain it to someone else. — aletheist
Childhood experiences do not give us a metaphysics, but they shape the stance that we will have. — Bitter Crank
Your metaphysics is probably a retroactive expression of your behavior/outlook. — The Great Whatever
The way we exist in the world is formed in our infancy, and develops rapidly. — Bitter Crank
Children might be shaped to believe that Santa Claus exists, but later they learn to think. Thought is not shaped by childhood experiences. — jkop
I was thinking more about idealism, materialism (either of which can be eliminative or reductive), neutral monism, etc. — Mongrel
Well I am an Eastern Orthodox. The thing is you are right that salvation must ultimately be bestowed by God through grace - however this manifests itself in an actual way, and is therefore known by the believer. The believer can look back in their personal history and identify the reason - ie the event - that made them convert and begin on the path of ascension to God (theosis). Thus God's intervention in the life of the believer appears from the inside as it were - the believer perceives it. It's metaphorically similar to having a veil lifted from your eyes.I am not as familiar with Eastern Orthodox theology, but I gather that it stresses becoming one with God ("theosis") over the course of one's life. — aletheist
One cannot be ethical without believing in God though - that would be to vacate belief in God of its corresponding ethical praxis don't you think so? The Pope has recently said that it is better to be an atheist than a hypocritical Catholic, and I think he was right. It's impossible to be a Christian and be unethical - if that's the case, then you're not really a Christian. And inversely - it is not possible to be be ethical and not be a believer in God - you may be unaware that you are a believer, but this lack of awareness doesn't mean that deep in your heart there is no element of belief. Again belief is about degrees, it's not a on-off switch. In addition, remember the unforgivable sin, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit - it is something that occurs deep in the heart, it's not merely a superficial rejection or mockery of God that is under discussion in that case. So someone may very well be outwardly mocking and rejecting God, but inwardly there may be a degree of belief left in them, and hence they would not have committed the unforgivable sin.I see believing in God and being ethical as two different things. Ultimately it is not about anything that I do, it is only about what God has done for me in Christ and through the Holy Spirit. " For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
Does your metaphysics show up in your behavior in some way? In your moral outlook? In the way you interact with people? In the way you view life in general? — Mongrel
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