English: it comes from the word "gyp" which means scam. — javi2541997

I thought it was the other way around - that the word "gyp" came from "gypsy."

You are right. It should be in the way around. I meant to say "gypsy" but I do not why my paper only appears "gyp" as if it would be ancient English or something.

Why is this a particular issue for you? Are you Roma? I hope that's not too personal.

No, I am not Roma but it is interesting to me for two reasons: There are a lot of Romas living in Spain so I guess I should be concerned about the issue and probably take care of.
On the other hand, it surprised me the negative etymology of this word. I never thought until today that the negative prejudice of "gypsies" is around the world.

English: it comes from the word "gyp" which means scam. — javi2541997

'Gypsy' seems to have been derived from:



The word was, at some point, subjected to 'pejoration' -- taking on a negative meaning. Apparently it was in the late 19th century.

"Jew" has been used in English in the same way -- as a verb meaning to drive the value of something down during bargaining. Jew, of course, is an ancient word (Hebrew/Greek/Latin/French/English) referencing the people who are the principal topic of the Old Testament.

It is an interesting study of how this group, but not that one, becomes loaded with negative meaning. My guess is that "Spaniard" has pretty much positive meanings, as far as I know. I've met only a few people in Minnesota who were from Spain, so here the national name is pretty much neutral. "Mexican" on the other hand is in the process of taking on much more value-load. Whether 'Mexican' gets a positive or negative spin is (probably) related to whether the word-user views Mexican immigration (documented or not) as a positive or negative factor I their community.

At one time, Scandinavian (or Norwegian, Swede, Finn, Dane) was not a very positive term in Minnesota -- like during the period when they were arriving in large numbers. Cedar Avenue in Minneapolis was at one time nicknamed "snus boulevard" -- snus (pron. snoos) being chewing tobacco. A still popular brand of snus is "Copenhagen".

In the novel, Mama's Bank Account, Kathryn Forbes depicted life in the Scandinavian community of San Francisco in the early 1900s. The middle class San Franciscans looked down their noses at the unwashed Scandinavians.

Now, of course, Scandinavians are the ones looking down their noses at the latest unwashed arrivals.

There seem to be two Greek-origin etymologies.

Spanish “gitano” from egiptano (“Egyptian”), from Ancient Greek Αἴγυπτος (Aíguptos).

gitano – Wiktionary

The Duden German Dictionary says that the origin of “Zigeuner” is unknown:

“spätmittelhochdeutsch ze-, zigīner, Herkunft ungeklärt”

Duden | Zigeuner | Rechtschreibung, Bedeutung, Definition, Herkunft

But I wouldn’t be surprised if it had a Byzantine Greek origin, perhaps via Italian “zingano” or Polish/Slavic “cygan”.

"Dissimilated form of earlier zingano, most likely from a Greek term meaning "untouchable". Compare the modern Greek designations Τσιγγάνοι (Tsingánoi), Αθίγγανοι (Athínganoi), τσιγγάνος (tsingános).[1][2][3] Cognate to German Zigeuner."

zingaro - Wiktionary

"Cygan, from Proto-Slavic *ciganinъ, from Byzantine Greek Αθίγγανος (Athínganos)."

cygan - Wiktionary

As Gypsies entered Europe via Greek-speaking areas like Turkey and Greece in the Middle Ages, a Byzantine Greek origin seems the most likely.

Edit. Incidentally, the word "Roma" itself may be of Byzantine Greek origin as at the time Gypsies arrived in Greece, all Greek speakers and Greeks themselves, called themselves "Romioi", i.e. "Romans" as they still viewed themselves as citizens of the Eastern Roman Empire.

I think it would make sense for Gypsies to be called "Gypsies" by others, but to call themselves "Romioi" or "Roma".

At one time, Scandinavian (or Norwegian, Swede, Finn, Dane) was not a very positive term in Minnesota — Bitter Crank

Interesting fact! This is why we should include this debate into philosophy of language. Here, the word Scandinavian is so positive. Most of the people tend to think that they are excellent workers and loyal citizens. Also, there is a general thought that those countries are better and more developed than ours. So this is why "Scandinavian" has a positive overall impact on our minds.

'Mexican' gets a positive or negative spin is (probably) related to whether the word-user views Mexican immigration (documented or not) as a positive or negative factor I their community. — Bitter Crank

Yes you are right. Here exactly happens the same but furthermore "Mexican" it is related with the word "Latino" and all the immigration stuff related to this word. It could be positive or negative depending on the people.

Spanish “gitano” from egiptano (“Egyptian”), from Ancient Greek Αἴγυπτος (Aíguptos). — Apollodorus

It is true that here in Spain is used the word "gitano" because of the popular thought that they came from Egypt. Nevertheless, there is also the negative prejudice of the same word. Cervantes, in his books, like Quixote or "Rinconete and Cortadillo" uses the word "gitano" as a really bad context or connotation. Also, I remember that the catholic kings (Ferdinand and Isabella) wanted kick all the gypsies out of Spain as the jews and Muslims, but they did not do it at the end beacuse it was so difficult to search them due to the wandering spirit they have.

I think it would make sense for Gypsies to be called "Gypsies" by others, but to call themselves "Romioi" or "Roma — Apollodorus

Interesting. Here we have now a lot of political parties that are developing tiny laws with the objective of removing the word" gitano" in all the possible areas. These political parties say is a racist and xenophobic word and is more appropriate to start calling them "Romaní"
But I guess this will not fix the big dilemma of their inclusion in society and works.

But I guess this will not fix the big dilemma of their inclusion in society and works. — javi2541997

I'm afraid you are right there. Old prejudices die hard.

I think the situation is also reflected in the fact that they refer to themselves by one name and others call them by other names.

But if “Gypsy” in the Romani language is “Rom” then this could be derived from Greek “Romios”. Drop the Greek suffix -ios and you get “Rom”.

Greeks and other Southeast Europeans like the Romanians were part of the original Roman Empire and called themselves “Romans”.

When the Roman Empire was divided into East and West in the 4th century, Emperor Constantine made Constantinople the new capital (New Rome, Nea Romi in Greek) of the Eastern Roman Empire.

The West was overrun by Germanic tribes, but the East part continued under Greek rule till 1453 when Constantinople fell to the Turks.

Throughout this time, Greeks and other Greek-speaking populations in Greece and in what is now Turkey called themselves “Romans” (Romioi), and were known as “Romans” to Arabs (al-Rum) and Turks (Rumlar). Some still call themselves that even now.

When Gypsies entered Europe via Greek-speaking areas, they probably adopted the appellation of “Romans” exactly as Greeks, Romanians, and others did before them. To call yourself “Roman” was a matter of prestige in those days.

If Byzantine Greek Romios became Arabic Rumi (plural Rum) and Turkish Rum (plural Rumlar), then it could easily have become Rom in the Gypsy language.

But locals probably saw them as aliens and called them “Egyptians” or some other Greek-origin name, which explains the difference.

Rûm – Wikipedia

I don't know if Spanish Gypsies call themselves "Roma" instead of "gitanos", but apparently they call their language "calo" or "cale".

Calo language - Wikipedia

Most of the people tend to think that they are excellent workers and loyal citizens. Also, there is a general thought that those countries are better and more developed than ours. So this is why "Scandinavian" has a positive overall impact on our minds. — javi2541997

Minnesota's largest immigrant source was German, followed by the 4 Scandinavian groups.

Minnesota tends to rank towards the top of surveys of health, education, and general welfare and towards the bottom of surveys for poverty, crime, chronic disease -- particularly for white folks, who are 83%+ of the population. Is this because of ethnic heritage (NW European) or some other factor? Minorities (Blacks, Latinos, Asians, Native Americans) tend not to do so well.

Many people from New England relocated to Minnesota in the 1800s. They had a large role in establishing the English dialect and the public ethical framework of Minnesota (and other Northern states like Michigan and Wisconsin. The ethical framework of Scandinavians and Germans was congenial to the New England view of the world, which descended from the Puritans.

So, the upshot of all that is the Scandinavians are generally held in higher regard than, say, Italians or Lebanese who followed quite different settlement patterns and social roles (nothing negative about either is being suggested here).

There are upsides and downsides. While Germans have a reputation for being good and hard workers, they were also a hotbed of antisemitic sentiment. The German community dropped German as their public and home language during and after WWI. Antisemitism wasn't all that uncommon in Minnesota when I was growing up in the 1950s. Jews were excluded from places like the American Automobile Association (AAA), a travel group, the Minneapolis Athletic Club, and the like. Hospitals were not friendly to Jewish doctors.

What of the Scandinavians and Germans now? They have become the invisible background. There is plenty of pride when the opportunity arises, but outside of events like Syttende Mai (May 15), Reformation Sunday and October Fest, not too much notice is taken. Except for the Finns: Lately they have been on a PR drive, maybe stimulated by Osmo Venska's 20 years as the conductor of the Minnesota Symphony Orchestra and a mid-century modern church designed by Saarinen becoming a national historical landmark.

My ancestors came to the English colonies from England in the late 1600s and from Northern Ireland around the time of the Famine.

I don't know if Spanish Gypsies call themselves "Roma" instead of "gitanos", but apparently they call their language "calo" or "cale".

Good question. No, in Spain they do not call themselves as "Roma", they just say "gitano" because sadly they are pretty ignorant to understand and know where they come from... It is true that they do understand "caló" and they even speak this variation of Spanish. For example, pestañi means police in caló.
It is all confused because most of them tend to not go to school neither college so the percentage of illiteracy is so high

English: it comes from the word "gyp" which means scam.
German: it comes from the word "zigeuner" which means thief
Spanish: it comes from the word "gitano" which means liar
Hungarian: it comes from the word "szégany" which means poor — javi2541997

Once you're poor, you get some concessions - you can be a thief, a liar, a scammer, even a murderer and people will cut you some slack. Motivation for immoral behavior: NEED!

There's no excuse for rich thieves, liars, and scammers. Motivation for immoral behavior: GREED!

Leave the poor gypsies alone!

Interesting facts Bitter, thanks for sharing it. I guess when someone is an immigrant in a different country from own, the situation would be not so easy to live according to their context and culture. I knew Germans were also a big group of immigrants in USA but I do not know why they tend to hide it because they tend to think being an immigrant or immigration is related to poor people... and Germany is no longer poor as much as back in WWI and WWII right? But it is interesting how they occult their past in this situation.

Here in Europe the situation is so different from yours. It is Germany, Nordic countries and UK which are full of immigration. They tend to be racist even if you are European too but you know we come from the south and this label makes a lot of negative prejudices. It is true that the situation has changed and I bet money that the youngest are more open minded but... We still have two stereotypes: We are lazy and "corrupt" (if corruption would only occur in Mediterranean countries!). For this reason, when we have to negotiate about to the European funds, the North European countries do not have a clear trust on south ones due to these prejudices. Even the PM of Netherlands and Austria wanted to put over Spain an administrator to keep the money clean because they think Spain is full of corruption and is a untrustworthy country... It is so sad when you have to carry with this heaviness...

Agree! Somehow it was our fault to make them poor and ignorant. But it is now our duty and responsibility the inclusion of these citizens in jobs and institutions. It sounds so difficult but not impossible :up:

Agree! Somehow it was our fault to make them poor and ignorant. But it is now our duty and responsibility the inclusion of these citizens in jobs and institutions. It sounds so difficult but not impossible :up: — javi2541997

Food for thought. Gypsies, if they're still into wandering about from place to place, the quintessential nomadic lifestyle, and if they aren't subjected to international border regulations, are a reminder to folks who consider themselves natives/original inhabitants/denizens/rightful owners of a given tract of land that their own history is marked by mass migrations of a similar if not identical nature. We're all gypsies.

This is the most interesting part! Gypsies were always been migrants walking through different states along the world. In the paper of the European Union, it says that despite the fact they are in EU for centuries they never founded a state or nation by their own, so this is why is difficult to put an order. The same reason that clearly a gypsy from Spain is not equal to a gypsy from Czech Republic.

they never founded a state or nation by their own — javi2541997

Gypsies never settle for less. :grin:

I do not know why they tend to hide it because they tend to think being an immigrant or immigration is related to poor people — javi2541997

I didn't write clearly. By using the term "background" I meant that NW Europeans are the norm, not that they are invisible or hide their identity. If you ask someone about their ancestors, most people reveal quite a bit of specific knowledge about where their immigrant ancestors came from, and when; they are proud of their ethnic background.

What one doesn't see, because it is not needed, I suppose is many "identity maintaining events".

Greece, Italy, Spain, and SE Europe generally have bad reputations among the NW Europeans--at least that is what I gather from the news. On the other hand, the giant of German engineering, Volkswagen, was revealed to have engaged in a long-term fraud involving emissions. No crooked dealing in Norway and Sweden? Highly unlikely.

No doubt the English, Germans, Swedes, et al are 100% as capable of corruption as anyone else.

In the US, some parts of the country are considered (by other parts) to be more corrupt. Midwesterners think the NE states--New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, or New England are more corrupt. On the other hand, Illinois has a major record of high level corruption, finding one governor after another going to prison. And then there is Chicago.

But the meaning of "corruption" isn't altogether clear. A strong mayor like Democrat Richard J. Daley (Chicago) who had strong union backing and a well oiled political "machine" could get major infrastructure projects funded and completed pretty quickly. Was it "corruption" or "effective governance"? When Daley was in office (1960s) NE cities and states seemed to require exceptionally long times to get anything done. Corruption or ineffective governance? Don't know. I don't know whether there is more corruption in the NE, Midwest, South, or West Coast.

It is possible that informal business practices which are not corrupt look suspicious to people who insist on contracts for everything. Favoring friends goes on in the highest circles of business and government everywhere. Why would it not? What distinguishes favoring one's friends from outright corruption may only be how crudely the favoring is done.

No doubt the English, Germans, Swedes, et al are 100% as capable of corruption as anyone else. — Bitter Crank

Agreed. It is true that corruption is along all the countries but at the same time there are some countries which tend to be more corrupt than others. I personally believe that the issue of corruption depends on the educational system.
All of those countries which encourage a better education tend to be "less" corrupt in terms that see it as a misery. On the other hand, we have countries which sadly they are already used to live among corrupt politicians and the common thought is: "well, everybody is corrupt in politics so vote whatever you want"

Favoring friends goes on in the highest circles of business and government everywhere. Why would it not? What distinguishes favoring one's friends from outright corruption may only be how crudely the favoring is done. — Bitter Crank

Yes, you are right and I guess this is one of the basic principles of politics. All the governors or senates have to be ready to make a lot of favors to the lobbies: trade unions, church, urbanism issues, promoters, etc... To keep being in the power or controlling the city/state/town etc...
We are both agree here that these "favors" could be "accepted" if do not affect people that much. But the ambition of the people is so big and they only want more, more and more... Yet at the end of the day, you see that due to their unstoppable ambition the public resources are gone...

We both have made a similar point, perhaps not intending to: Corruption is something that other people are doing. Greeks, but not Germans. New York but not Wisconsin.

All of those countries which encourage a better education tend to be "less" corrupt in terms that see it as a misery. — javi2541997

Good point. Among better educated, better employed, more secure, more prosperous populations there is confidence in collective honesty. One doesn't expect to be craftily cheated at the bank, grocery store, city office, The banker, grocer, and city official are confident in their careers' long term honest success.

Populations that are poor and precarious (all or much of the time) have less incentive to be confident in the future, and to trust in honesty. Though, in precarious populations, it will be the guys on the make who will cut the most ethical corners. How then to account for well-paid, prosperous, educated, and cultured executives at Volkswagen installing crooked equipment to defeat emissions testing? Pure greed, I suppose. Building a genuinely clean engine would be a lot more trouble than corrupting the test results.

Capitalists (as well as commissars) will avoid doing the right thing if too much inconvenience and cost is involved, and if they can get away with it.