All of them can be present ina part of your brain too — Prishon

It's time for me to mention that all this stuff with memory, neurons, cells, etc. is kind of "floating on the air". There's still no definite proof that memory is part of the brain. (I say "still", because scientists continue to change each now and then both the actual location of the memory and its functioning. I watch this serial since the early 70s ...) Much less has been proven that thinking and consciousness are products of the brain, as most scientists still believe (mainly because they can't figure out, as pure materialists, where else these could be!) That's why, I believe it is safer if you use the word "mind" instead of "brain" (both for those who identify it with "brain" and the other, like myself, who believe that these are two different things). And certainly avoid talking about "neurons"! I certainly don't know how exactly they function, but I know that they work for receiving and transmitting signals. And this is more or less what the brain does. There may be also some kind of "memory", which has to do exclusively with the body and which is located in cells other than neurons or other specific parts of the brain, but I cannot tell. I was never much interested to find out!

What a difference with Philosophy Stack Exchange! — Prishon

I don't know about that, never subsribed to it, but I have been to a couple of other philosophical forums and they suck big time! I can openly say that TPF is best by far!

mainly because they can't figure out, as pure materialists, where else these could be! — Alkis Piskas

What scientists (I dont consider myself one although I know a lot about "the hardest" of them all, elementary particles and quantum fields in curved spacetimes, which made me realize there is more than matter and space inly) overlook is the content of matter. There is no memory like in computers (which is one of the reasons I consider the brain as an analogue computer, although litterally computation doesnt take place). The strengths between neurons (looking materialitically now) determine how the patterns flow freely, unforced by an external potential source. On the same set of interconnected neurons many patterns can flow.

I can really not say anytthing more about neurons than what I have already said.

There is no memory like in computers (which is one of the reasons I consider the brain as an analogue computer — Prishon

OK, but as we have already established there's no analogue computer. So any comparison with human memory falls apart, doesn't it?

... although litterally computation doesnt take place — Prishon

Isn't this one more reason for not comparing the mind with a computer?

Isn't this one more reason for not comparing the mind with a computer? — Alkis Piskas

The definition of an analogue computer is not a device that actually computes (this makes the term confusing indeed). It is a device in which an analogue process to whatever external process takes place. Like the analogue computer used in representing a drop that falls from a tap (chaos can appear). There is a changing electric current representing the drops. Not a current based on 1 and 0 like in a d.c.

The definition of an analogue computer is not a device that actually computes (t — Prishon

OK, maybe you mean this:"An analog computer or analogue computer is a type of computer that uses the continuously variable aspects of physical phenomena such as electrical, mechanical, or hydraulic quantities to model the problem being solved. In contrast, digital computers represent varying quantities symbolically and by discrete values of both time and amplitude." (Wikipedia)

If this is so, then I have wrongly interpreted your subject. My bad! See, we often are biased by the things we know best or words/terms that are more commonly in use, and in this case it is "digital computers". Digital computers --or just "computers"-- are so much involved in our lives that they almost hide any chance that there's some other kind of computer! At least, this is what happene to me. I'm sorry.

Bad luck again, though! I am not good in and know very little about mechanics, in general, so I can't help here either (as I couldn't with neurons)! So, there's a chance that the brain works in somehow a similar was with analogue computers as defined above.

But wait a min! There's a branch in artificial intelligence called "Neural Networks". There may be some similarity between them, which refer to a digital world, and the brain. This is again from Wikipedia:

"A neural network is a network or circuit of neurons, or in a modern sense, an artificial neural network, composed of artificial neurons or nodes. Thus a neural network is either a biological neural network, made up of biological neurons, or an artificial neural network, for solving artificial intelligence (AI) problems. The connections of the biological neuron are modeled in artificial neural networks as weights between nodes. A positive weight reflects an excitatory connection, while negative values mean inhibitory connections. All inputs are modified by a weight and summed. This activity is referred to as a linear combination."


Simplified view of a feedforward artificial neural network

I don't know if this can help. But it is the least I can do for misinterpreting your "analogue computer"!

I don't know if this can help. But it is the least I can do for misinterpreting your "analogue computer"! — Alkis Piskas

:up: :smile:

That helps indeed! Thanks! It looks indeed as that whats going on in the brain. Artificial neural networks are pretty good in "recognizing" patterns. I think you can see why. The networks are too straight in my vision (contrary to the lightning shaped real neurons). Im not sure if there is a digital program lying under ANNs. Thanks again!

That helps indeed! Thanks! It looks indeed as that whats going on in the brain. Artificial neural networks are pretty good in "recognizing" patterns. I think you can see why. The networks are too straight in my vision (contrary to the lightning shaped real neurons). Im not sure if there is a digital program lying under ANNs. — Prishon

I am glad I have inspire you! :smile: And I see that you are knowledgable in the AI field!
However, although there is some parallel between ANNs and the brain, we must not forget that neurons are analogue --they operate on a continuum of signals-- whereas computers (AI) work on a 0-1 basis. This, and also the computing abilities of the second make their comparison impossible. We can only talk figuratively: The previous image of a neural network is no more than what in programming we call control flow, just a representation, a rough description of a process or program, which I am sure you know well.

So we can say that ANN's are programmed processes, contrary to the real stuff.

There are also neural networks that simulate brain function at a neuro-chemical level (which would be analog-equivalent, I guess), however they are less efficient than traditional 'high level' designs...

I didnt know that. I understand these are less efficient than their high level counterparts in standard computers. I think there are no higher level functions in the brain. Its one whole in which whirling is going on in different forms.

It's time for me to mention that all this stuff with memory, neurons, cells, etc. is kind of "floating on the air". There's still no definite proof that memory is part of the brain. — Alkis Pskas

https://www.theguardian.com/science/neurophilosophy/2015/mar/09/false-memories-implanted-into-the-brains-of-sleeping-mice

Neuroscientists in France have implanted false memories into the brains of sleeping mice. Using electrodes to directly stimulate and record the activity of nerve cells, they created artificial associative memories that persisted while the animals snoozed and then influenced their behaviour when they awoke.

Manipulating memories by tinkering with brain cells is becoming routine in neuroscience labs. Last year, one team of researchers used a technique called optogenetics to label the cells encoding fearful memories in the mouse brain and to switch the memories on and off, and another used it to identify the cells encoding positive and negative emotional memories, so that they could convert positive memories into negative ones, and vice versa.

The new work, published today in the journal Nature Neuroscience, shows for the first time that artificial memories can be implanted into the brains of sleeping animals. It also provides more details about how populations of nerve cells encode spatial memories, and about the important role that sleep plays in making such memories stronger.

Yes, we can say that.

"An analog computer or analogue computer is a type of computer that uses the continuously variable aspects of physical phenomena such as electrical, mechanical, or hydraulic quantities to model the problem being solved."

There's something missing from this definition, something that is crucial to the question whether the brain works like an analogue computer. What's missing is the fact that we use the computer to model the problem being solved. The computer doesn't use the physical phenomena, we do.

A slide rule is a mechanical analogue computer. Mathematical calculations are performed by aligning a mark on a sliding central strip with a mark on one of two outer fixed strips, and then observing the relative positions of other marks on the strips.

The computer's output has to be interpreted by an outside observer. It's the same with any computer, analogue or digital. It isn't the same with the brain/mind. Your brain is producing your present conscious experiences regardless of how an outside observer might interpret what is happening.

Therefore the brain/mind does not work in the same way as a computer. QED

I am not sure if analogue computer has ever existed. Every computer ever existed in history is all digital from my knowledge.

Can you list some examples of analogue computers? (if there had been any in real world)

If a device is analogue, then it is not a computer.

I am not sure if analogue computer has ever existed. Every computer ever existed in history is all digital from my knowledge.

Can you list some examples of analogue computers? (if there had been any in real world) — Corvus

https://www.analogcomputermuseum.org/

:smile:

I didnt know there where that many! Thanks!!!

If a device is analogue, then it is not a computer — Corvus

What about a record player vs compact disc player?

What about a record player vs compact disc player? — Prishon

They are just electrical devices, not computers.

https://www.analogcomputermuseum.org/ — InPitzotl

They are just electrical devices, not computers. — Corvus

They are just electrical devices, not computers. — Corvus

I dunno. The compact disc player translates (computes) information into soundwaves. The record player does the same. But there is no computation.

They are just electrical devices, not computers. — Corvus

These ARE computers. Only non-digital. They conform to the definition of an analogue computer. True, they are non-digital? What do you expect as an answer?

"Including our newest addition, a 1936 Analog Computer (the RangeKeeper) that
controlled the big guns on the USS St. Louis. The St. Louis was the first ship
to make it out of Pearl Harbor on December 7 1941!"

These ARE computers. Only non-digital. They conform to the definition of an analogue computer. True, they are non-digital? What do you expect as an answer? — Prishon

If definitions are too wide, then discussions end up science fiction.

The mentioned computers are no fiction. They are real computers but not conforming to the standard view on computers.

The mentioned computers are no fiction. They are real computers but not conforming to the standard view on computers. — Prishon

I was not saying the device are fiction.
I said the discussion will end up in fiction :D

I was not saying the device are fiction.
I said the discussion will end up in fiction :D — Corvus

That depends on the people discussing... ☺

That depends on the people discussing... ☺ — Prishon

I see them all the time :)